America falls apart

The team discusses the murder of George Floyd and its aftermath.

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Topics Politics USA

Can America overcome the racial divide? Has the lockdown damaged democracy? Why are the police arresting people over tasteless jokes? Tom Slater, Ella Whelan and Fraser Myers discuss all this and more on this week’s spiked podcast.

To enquire about republishing spiked’s content, a right to reply or to request a correction, please contact the managing editor, Viv Regan.

Comments

ZENOBIA PALMYRA

7th June 2020 at 8:14 pm

Highland Fleet Lute

7th June 2020 at 6:45 pm

“Bezmenov, however, was insistent that American left-wing professors and civil-rights leaders were deliberately running Andropov’s strategy with a conscious effort to achieve destabilization, the step that truly distinguishes ideological subversion from the usual promises to put a chicken in every pot.”

“They are instrumental in the process of subversion only to destabilize a nation,” he said of the academics and activists. “When their job is completed, they are not needed anymore. They know too much. Some of them, when they get disillusioned, when they see that Marxist-Leninists come to power, obviously they get offended. They think that they will come to power. That will never happen, of course. They will be lined up against the wall and shot.”

The Weathermen I and II..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PjtV0RA8hE&t=1342s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d9TZFwj7cg

ryann yann

7th June 2020 at 5:09 pm

Sorry Mike, no death penalty in Minnesota. Not since 1911.

Highland Fleet Lute

7th June 2020 at 9:53 am

Black Lives Matter is just a bunch of narcissism.

ryann yann

7th June 2020 at 5:07 pm

dasdas

Brandy Cluster

7th June 2020 at 3:16 am

This podcast is an absolutely brilliant assessment of the BLM and racialism in the USA and elsewhere. And if ‘black lives matter’ so much, why don’t African Americans behave as though the do?

Not a rhetorical question.

J Dantre

7th June 2020 at 1:44 am

I generally love your publication but really, “America Falls Apart?” Is this the daily mail? Speaking for the 300+ million that are not protesting… we’re doing fine, thank you!

Brandy Cluster

7th June 2020 at 3:17 am

I’d like to agree with you, but you sadly living in an increasingly neurotic, economically declining nation. It saddens me to say so, to be honest.

KATHLEEN CARR

7th June 2020 at 3:54 pm

Exactly , this is happening in a few cities with the usual suspects.For the rest of the world it is life as usual-but of course the news which only seem to represent one political party likes to exaggerate. Biden threatened black people that they had better vote for him and black neighbourhoods ( where some people were expressing support for the black Republican candidate) , get burnt down-so even if they leave that area the new client base from other places such as Somalia can move in to replace them.

AQNXIOUS COUPE

6th June 2020 at 10:47 pm

the usual shit from slater and his friends , vindictive tory cunts

kovoka7 kovoka7

6th June 2020 at 9:48 pm

nice

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 7:06 pm

It must be awful to live in a mind in which all lives matter, not just their timely and untimely ends, but the inner and circumstantial details of the lives. How exhausting that must be. It is adolescent to posture that one cares about that stuff. No one does.

What would it even mean, or entail, for their lives to ‘matter’ to me? A proposition of the mind, an act of will, sympathetic feelings? Everyone’s lives a poem in which one is emotionally involved?

Life is not like that. People live, people die. People get on with their lives. I get on with mine. They die, no big deal. I die, no big deal.

Sure we can help each other, which is mutually beneficial. We may care if we are confronted with the death of another right in front of us. But that does not mean that we especially care. More likely we care about people that know intimately.

Millions of strangers die in all sorts of ways everyday. Do we care? Not really. It is not even worth a moment’s thought. It certainly does not keep us awake at night. We could not care less about anything when we flip that light switch. They call it ‘turning it off’ or ‘flipping the switch’ in the Vampire Diaries, and perhaps it is an allusion to that?

I fancy that this ‘lives matter’ lark is just virtue-signalling. ‘Look at what a good person I am, I care so much.’ People do not really care. It is not normal that they care, and neither ‘should’ they. It is not about caring, it is about conforming to post-imperialist bourgeois ideology and about putting on a group performance to confirm that.

As Schopenhauer points out, in a hundred years from now, it will make no difference whether any of us lived or not. The simple fact will be that we are not, any more than if we had never been. For an eternity we did not exist, and for an eternity we shall not exist. Time exposes the emptiness and futility of existence, and such an existence is not worth worrying about that much.

So, I think that I am just being honest when I say that I do not really care. Humans are made to not really care. They are perhaps just not so much made to be honest about that.

* * *

I am listening to Poulenc’s opera, Dialogues des Carmelites, on the cans as I type, which the composer made all about the emotional details of the nun’s often traumatic experiences during the dissolution of the monasteries in the French revolution, rather than about the overall plot; and to me, it is just ‘absolute music’, art without any emotional content. That is how I like life, as absolute art. Or with a steady calm, an exquisite balm like baroque music. I enjoy Romantic music but I do not confuse aesthetics with reality, and I certainly would not want to experience life as some tragic, emotional drama. I prefer to listen to operas when I do not understand the language or the plot. Frankly who cares what the story is? That is what movies are for.

Michael Thompson

6th June 2020 at 10:02 pm

“So, I think that I am just being honest when I say that I do not really care. Humans are made to not really care. They are perhaps just not so much made to be honest about that.”

Humans have compassion. Denial about that reality is dishonesty. We actually feel something when we see human suffering and injustice. We are moved to try and relieve that suffering and injustice. No individual can relieve it all but that does not mean we ignore our innate desire to help others. We do what we can because we want to. It is human to want to.

The problem is that so much of what passes for care is not based on compassion and is as you say ‘virtue signalling’. None of the behaviour that we see in protests and rallies actually changes anything for those who suffer. It only changes the self perception of those who take part.

Human suffering is a practical problem that needs practical solutions. Symbolic gestures, mass gatherings and sloganeering do nothing to solve those problems.

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 10:39 pm

Exactly, the thing is to sort out society. No one can bear the sufferings and of the world and no one is inclined to. We care, and we do not care. Both are true. People are not going to change, and the thing is to sort out society.

As you say, that is a practical matter, not one of self-righteousness or performance art. We do not need a society that feels better about itself, or a ‘moral’ society. That only reinforces the status quo. We do not need people to change, we need society to change.

The ‘look at what a good person I am, I care so much’, is completely useless and even counter-productive. It is completely irrelevant whether we personally ‘care’. The complete absence of any platform in BLM is striking.

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 11:17 pm

We do not need Jesus wannabes who think that they are going to reform society with personal sanctity and rectitude and by preaching personal conversions. The underlying problem is a lack of material development, which underlies social and ideological development. Capitalism has hit its limits to improve living standards in ‘mature’ capitalist economies, and to offer people widespread social mobility and a better future, and we are going to have to address that as a society at some point. Moral posturing simply attempts to adapt the ideology to a stagnant base, to divert people into quasi-spiritual and fruitless moral crusades.

Social problems cannot be solved without the solution of material problems, and the capitalist state is well aware of that. ‘Better’ people is not the solution, a materially and socially progressive society that offers people more opportunities for personal and social development is the solution. We do not need to ‘share suffering’ in saintliness and to ‘love one another’, but to remove the causes of social deprivation and conflict. The issue is not whether people are ‘naturally good’ or compassionate but whether we continue to progress as a material civilisation. ‘Moral goodness’ is irrelevant and a diversion from the real problems.

Gail T has a new blog post on BLM and it contains this interesting graphic, linked below, which shows how much material growth has been swallowed up by population growth. There have been three big peaks in the improvement of living standards; first around the time of WWI; then after WWII, and that peaked in the 1970s and has been headed downward ever since; the improvement of living standards in China over the last two decades. Living standards no longer improve in the West, due to a lack of productivity growth. If we are going to have a better future as a society then we are going to have to address the limits of capitalism, and to think seriously about radically restructuring the economy. Moral crusades and personal sanctity will not cut it.

https://gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/growth-rate-1820-2018-with-china-bump-circled.png-shot-2019-09-11-at-1.00.53-pm.png

Michael Thompson

7th June 2020 at 2:41 am

“The issue is not whether people are ‘naturally good’ or compassionate but whether we continue to progress as a material civilisation. ‘Moral goodness’ is irrelevant and a diversion from the real problems.”

But you expressed the opinion that we do not care. Compassion has nothing to do with morality. Compassion is in every human being in the same way that fear and anger and joy and pleasure are. We seek to solve the problems because we are moved to do so. Most people do not need a better ‘material society’ and yet they are moved to improve things for those who do not have it. When everyone has it we will no longer feel compassion.

Mor Vir

7th June 2020 at 8:38 am

‘All you need is love’?

I disagree. People are not universally compassionate, whatever socially acceptable posture they put on. People care mainly about themselves and their near ones. They care very little about anyone else and they do very little to help them. It is the operation of the profit motive that has driven material and social development and improved people’s lives not compassion. No moral crusade is going to change that.

Michael Thompson

7th June 2020 at 9:52 am

What has love got to do with anything? People are universally compassionate but often it is suppressed like many other emotions because of fear. If you don’t feel compassion it is because you live in fear and living in fear is no way to live.

Mor Vir

7th June 2020 at 10:27 am

It is usually understood that compassion is not distinct from love but a species of love along with eros. Love (compassion) is defined as to will good or order. It is very much the subject of ethics. We are not going to get anywhere if you simply deny all common understanding.

Michael Thompson

7th June 2020 at 11:23 am

Why does compassion have to be a species of anything? Compassion exists like all the other emotions. It is part of human nature. Whether there is such a thing as love is irrelevant to the existence of compassion. Compassion is defined as an emotion – not an act of will.

We are not going to get anywhere if you continue to deny the existence of a fundamental human emotion.

Mor Vir

7th June 2020 at 12:00 pm

Compassionate love is a potentiality, a habit or a disposition of the will that is actualised practically as acts of will that are aimed at the good of another. Emotions are agitations or motions of the will that may or may not accompany the disposition. Emotions are not the root of compassionate love, the disposition of the will underlies both the acts and sometimes accompanying emotions. Emotions are not essential to compassionate love, which is action according to disposed habit. Emotions are an experience of the disposition but an emotional experience is not essential to the habit or to its act. You may think that your emotions are primary but they are not, the disposition of the will is primary and emotions are an experience that some people have of that disposition. Other people do not need to feel emotions or to be led by them in order to have or to act according to their dispositions. They act according to character. Emotions are an experience of your own disposition and not of the object of your concern. Adolescents tend to attach primacy to emotions because their brains, and their characters, are not yet fully developed. This stuff has been explained thousands of years ago, and there is nothing to add to it.

Mor Vir

7th June 2020 at 12:38 pm

And btw. compassion is not a universal disposition, as if people are hard wired to it. It is one proposed virtue among many others. Not everyone is compassionate, nor do they experience compassionate emotions. Do not assume that everyone is the same as you. People have their own characters and their own dispositions and accompanying emotions. Not everyone has the same character, dispositions or emotions. People vary.

Nor is it established that compassion is more conducive to human well-being than egoism, the pursuit of self-interest, which is basic to how capitalism works and to the profit mechanism. Human material and social development, human good, is underlayed by economic development, here capitalism, not by compassion. Compassion is not the driving force of human good. Nor is ‘human goodness’ or moral uprightness.

The problem that we have to today is the historical limits of capitalism, not ‘bad people’ or a lack of compassion. The question that faces us is how to restructure the economy to improve living standards and social mobility. Emotions and ‘human goodness’ are completely irrelevant. ‘Anti-r acism’, like green’ism is now a post-growth moralistic bourgeois ideology that diverts people away from the real material problem and into moral crusades and virtue signalling. It is frankly silly, adolescent to the core.

Michael Thompson

7th June 2020 at 1:07 pm

You are just claiming that compassion is linked to love without explaining how or why. Compassion is not a ‘disposition’ any more than fear or anger are dispositions. They are emotions that move us to action. We do not need compassion to be aligned with love it exists as part of human nature and needs no justification any more than other emotions.

It seems you are trying to take something that exists in nature and shoehorn it into a pre-established world view.

Compassion is universal. Whether or not people act upon their feelings of compassion is determined by their freedom to do so. Those feelings may get suppressed out of fear of what may ensue if they act upon them but they nevertheless exist. People are often afraid to act when they feel fear or anger too but that does not negate the universality of those emotions.

Mor Vir

7th June 2020 at 6:40 pm

No worries, let us agree to disagree. Thanks for the chat.

Neil McCaughan

6th June 2020 at 5:22 pm

Why is manslaughter described as murder at the head of the page?

Ryan Adcock

6th June 2020 at 4:04 pm

BLaMe

KATHLEEN CARR

6th June 2020 at 2:33 pm

The head of the Green party in Canada has called for Canada to accept all BAME people from America as she thinks Trump’s America is no longer safe for them. I would imagine the black communities would be glad to get rid of all the looters and arsonists, who have destroyed their neighbourhoods. In a show of solidarity with BLM , LEGO (one of whose stores was looted ) has requested that any of their models with police , soldiers or any authority figures be withdrawn. Perhaps they could re-design a new model with figures emerging from stores with expensive watches and bags?

Anjela Kewell

6th June 2020 at 10:59 am

It is a real sadness that the biggest tragedy of these riots is not the death of a known criminal but the shooting of Officer Dawn. No one speaks of or mentions this act of bravery and the outcome. Whilst the brainwashed activists get their way and the media make a mountain out of a molehill, Officer Dawn goes undetected.

Candice Owens got it spot on when she told the black community to get a grip, stop following those who only use them as their entry into power and start standing up for their own future and not that of the useful idiot. What a pity our media and government cannot see the real racial problems created by those who fund Antifa, HNH and BLM.

Michael Thompson

6th June 2020 at 10:23 am

Black people are their own worst enemies. They define themselves by the colour of their skin. “Black lives matter” is a racist statement. All human life matters and there should be no need to declare that any subset of human life matters unless you do not consider yourself to be a part of the human race. Their slogans only serve to show how insecure they are about their place in humanity.

Racism may exist and black people may suffer injustices that white people do not but none of this can ever place them outside of the human family. What others think of them should be irrelevant to their dignity as human beings. They should refuse to be cast as ‘black people’ and stand up for their rights as people. The moment they draw attention to their skin colour they are behaving in a subservient manner.

The same can be said for all their so-called supporters who go along with their subservient self- appraisal and help perpetrate institutionalised racism.

We should stand up for human rights and that is good enough for every human being. Let no man place themselves in the position where they draw attention to their skin colour.

Alan Woolf

6th June 2020 at 10:44 am

Well said Michael. Collective ‘white guilt’ is the quintessence of racism.

Anjela Kewell

6th June 2020 at 11:04 am

The content of your mind and not the colour of your skin should be thrown at the black community over and over again by those on the right. The black community is being used by white communist globalists who want civil unrest and racial tensions in order to keep control of the narrative and the money.

If we white people don’t stand up to this agenda and actively stand as communities instead of trying to make excuses, appease and feed into the globalist agenda, riots will only get worse. It is shocking to see ordinary people prostrate themselves without understanding what they do.

Dominic Straiton

6th June 2020 at 7:13 am

For every 10000 arrests in the US four white men and three black men are killed. So that rules out racism. Everyone go home.

Jackie Robbins

6th June 2020 at 12:03 am

The federal government has evidence that the radical left-wing antifa movement as well as other extremist groups have “hijacked” legitimate protests around the country to incite violence, and said certain “foreign actors” are seizing on the unrest to sow discord in the U.S.

“While many have peacefully expressed their anger and grief, others have hijacked protests to engage in lawlessness, violent rioting, arson, looting of businesses, and public property assaults on law enforcement officers and innocent people, and even the murder of a federal agent,” Barr said. “We have evidence that antifa and other similar extremist groups, as well as actors of a variety of different political persuasions have been involved in instigating and participating in the violent activity.

Barr added, “we are also seeing foreign actors playing all sides to exacerbate the violence.”

***

I wonder if Spiked will also censor US Attorney General Bill Barr’s statement in addition to censoring my comment which was an opinion that we are witnessing an attempted Regime Change by bad Anti Trump actors in the Deep State…

Jackie Robbins

5th June 2020 at 10:47 pm

As a US citizen I can tell you that the Democrats and Deep State Brenner Clapper thugs are attempting a Regime Change in our own country under our own eyes.

It is no different from Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Syria, South America. Anti Trump CIA players are committing treason to overthrow or topple Trump and if that means destroying our Republic in flames they’re willing to do it to regain power and the tax dollars they’ve been raiding for decades. They want all the dirty swamp deals back and they’re using Covid-19 to do it and now they sent in their Regime Change underground military Antifa to create chaos, anarchy just like Libya, Iraq, Syria, San Salvador…now they’re doing it to Trump and the United States.

I pray that every Democrat will be voted out if we still have a country by November.

Incidentally paid $35.00 for Brendan’s Anti Woke book sent to my Maui address. Oh well, I’m sure it will be worth it!

Anjela Kewell

6th June 2020 at 11:09 am

100% agree with this post. What a pity the British Snivel Serpents are doing the same to Boris and yet he just doesn’t seem to understand.

Brandy Cluster

7th June 2020 at 3:24 am

Most of these lefty activists/Democrats are dependent, in one way or another, on the taxpayer. Many of them are in safe and cozy sinecures and want that to continue in the swamp. Trump is definitely his own worst enemy, but the question come November will be:

1. Do we want a rambling populist who understands business and can get people back to work, or do we prefer a polite man with incipient dementia who will be manipulated by the clueless puppet-masters of the Left. This latter cohort don’t care a damn about whether the folks get jobs or not, because they’ll be controlling them anyway.

Yep; it’s pretty simple.

Mor Vir

5th June 2020 at 10:02 pm

Yet another poll has found a majority in favour of Scottish independence. Two-thirds of Scots now want another independence referendum within the next five years, so that is looking unavoidable now if SNP wins the 2021 Holyrood elections on that platform, as looks very likely. It looks like Scottish independence is happening soon.

Most Englanders indicate in polls that they could not care less if the UK breaks up, including TP voters, and England may yet get its own independence, courtesy of everyone else. Likely NI will have its own poll on Irish unity, and the south, within five years after the Scottish referendum, so within the next decade.

> More than half of Scots in favour of Scottish independence in new Panelbase poll

A new poll by Panelbase puts support for independence at 52%, making it the second this year to indicate a Yes majority.

The survey, which was commissioned by ScotGoesPop, was taken in the wake of the Dominic Cummings scandal, and asked pollers: “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

It suggests that 20% of No voters from the last referendum in 2014 would now swap their votes and poll in favour of independence.

The 52% figure is derived from stats when ‘don’t knows’ are excluded – when they are included, the Yes figure sits at 48% with No at 45%.

“This poll leaves Scottish Labour looking a bit daft, coming just hours after Richard Leonard pronounced there was “no appetite” for independence.”

It comes just one week after a new poll from Ipsos MORI for BBC Scotland found that 63% of people want another referendum, 34% within the next two years, 19% in two to five years, and 10% after the next five years.

– The Herald, today

Mor Vir

5th June 2020 at 10:34 pm

Yep, it is not only USA that is falling apart. The establishment and its media have done everything that they can to cast Britain and its people as problematically r acist, so do not be too surprised if Scotland wants to leave such a society. People do believe that stuff and it does have consequences, for the society too.

Ven Oods

6th June 2020 at 4:06 pm

It’ll certainly have consequences for the Scots, when they don’t have the backing of the Bank of England. The oil price has tanked and, if the Barnet Formula money stopped flowing, things could look bleak north of the Border.
There’s only so much Scotch you can sell to fill the gap, and lots of job losses mean less spending, including on whisky.

ZENOBIA PALMYRA

6th June 2020 at 4:58 pm

VEN OODS — The economics are irrelevant. It’s time Scots assumed full responsibility for themselves instead of parasiting off England. The union has reduced Scotland to vassal status over the last 100 years.

Treacle Tart

6th June 2020 at 2:48 am

It is only the Scots Nats who keep saying that another independence referendum is “unavoidable”. The fact is that the Conservatives put a pledge not to hold a Scottish independence referendum into their 2019 manifesto (thank you, Boris), and so there cannot be one before the next general election.

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 8:51 am

The matter would then be decided by the Supreme Court and QCs are confident that Westminster would lose.

Very likely Westminster refusal to allow Scots to decide their own future with another referendum would boost support for independence.

We will just have to wait and see how things develop.

James Conner

6th June 2020 at 5:39 am

We were living in Scotland during the last referendum. We voted NO, mainly out of self-interest, I didn’t want Scotland to hit the skids while I was living there. We sold up and moved South a couple of years after the result, which was too close for comfort. It is perfectly clear to me that the SNP will get another ref and next time they’ll win. I’m so glad I have no property or financial interests north of the border now. It will amusing to watch the Scots tip their country down down the toilet.

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 9:00 am

There are many countries in Europe of a comparable size and population to Scotland, which do much better for themselves than UK. Seven of the ten poorest regions in northern Europe lie in UK. Ireland has shown over the last few decades that nations can break away from UK and do well. The EU now exists, into which those nations can integrate their economies and Scotland would very likely take that path. Independence from UK no longer has the economic drawbacks that it once had.

James Conner

6th June 2020 at 9:05 am

“There are many countries in Europe of a comparable size and population to Scotland, which do much better for themselves than UK.”

Really? With the UK coming a close third after Germany and France regarding the strength of their respective economies, which countries are you referring to?

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 10:06 am

UK is a large economy with a lot of workers and it is the sixth largest economy in the world.

IMF ranks UK as twenty-seventh in the world by GDP (PPP) per capita, which indicates the average standard of living in a country. PPP takes into account the cost of living and inflation rates rather than just exchange rates, so it is a good estimate of living standards.

Many European countries in Europe with a much smaller population than UK, and many with populations comparable to Scotland, do much better for themselves in living standards by GDP (PPP) per capita than UK according to IMF:

Luxembourg
Ireland
Norway
Switzerland
San Marino
Iceland
Sweden
Denmark
Belgium
Finland

Large countries that do better than UK in GDP (PPP) per capita include: Germany, Austria, France.

If anything, the smaller countries tend to do better in living standards these days than the larger ones.

Thus Scotland has nothing to fear from independence due to its size or population. Nor would it be dependent on UK for economic integration in the way that Ireland was in the decades following Irish partition. It would very likely successfully integrate into the EU economy in the way that Ireland now has, along with many other smaller countries.

Neil McCaughan

6th June 2020 at 5:21 pm

Deranged nonsense.
And quoting the Herald is barely more credible than quoting the wee nats “Wings over Scotland”.
We aren’t going to have another referendum, and if we did, and the Scottish nazis won, Scotland would simply be partitioned. We are not going anywhere. Capeesh?

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 5:29 pm

Are you going to shake your jester bells?

Mor Vir

5th June 2020 at 8:49 pm

A new YouGov poll suggests that a majority in UK consider Britain to be a racist society. One wonders what evidence they have for thinking that, or whether it is like a religious belief that does not need any evidence. Perhaps it is akin to a ‘moral truth’ that people feel that they ‘ought’ to agree with. LP voters and the young are more likely to think UK racist than TP or older.

> 6% of people think British society isn’t racist, new polls shows

A new poll has revealed how racist British people consider themselves.

A small portion of Brits believe the UK isn’t a racist society, according to the findings of the poll.

The new survey, published by YouGov on Thursday, asked 5146 adults the question: “To what extent, if at all, do you think the UK is a racist society?”

According to the results 6% answered “not racist at all”, while 8% of people believe the UK is “very racist”, while nearly half – or 44% – believe British society is “fairly racist”.

The data comes amid global protests over the death of George Floyd at the hands of police in the US.

Around 36% of respondents said Britain was “not very racist”. A further 7% said they did not know…

https://sports.yahoo.com/british-society-racist-new-poll-175819520.html

Mike Oliver

5th June 2020 at 11:00 pm

You shouldn’t take much notice of such polls.
You only get a true picture when there is a secret ballot.
People are mistrustful of pollsters and how their opinions will be interpreted.
The media in the UK suggest there is only one right way to think, and normal people feel that they will be judged if they don’t offer the right answer.
So when their opinions diverge from the orthodox narrative, they are not honest with pollsters. It’s easier than being judged or having to defend your views.
That’s why most polls in recent years have failed to reflect the truth.
And the reason you believe these polls is because they tell you what you want to hear.

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 8:38 am

All of the major polling companies reviewed their methodology in recent years and they were all very accurate for the 2019 GE. We can put more stock into those polls now.

Polls on other matters can be conducted face to face or by phone, and it is true that some people can be more open and honest when not face to face. It is legitimate to raise those issues but it cannot be assumed that 94% or whatever are lying.

Jerry Owen

7th June 2020 at 8:29 am

Mike
Mor Vir is obsessed with polls, to the point if tedium.

Mor Vir

7th June 2020 at 9:30 am

Oh you poor darling, are your heroes Boris and Trump down in the polls. Never mind.

Andrew Mawdsley

5th June 2020 at 8:32 pm

I’m a huge fan of Spiked and a monthly donor. However the coverage of this event from many (not all) of your contributors has been shambolic and hyperbolic to say the least.

It has yet to be proven that George Floyd was murdered and yet it is being reported as fact in the podcast and all over the website.

The coverage has been biased in the extreme and your sympathies seem to lie with the people committing the acts of violence against the police and peoples property.

There is no legitimate reason for these protests to be continuing for this length of time and there’s even less reason for them to have spread to this country.

Please do better.

ZENOBIA PALMYRA

5th June 2020 at 8:47 pm

Yeah, that knee on the neck for ten minutes was probably just an accident.

Mor Vir

5th June 2020 at 9:39 pm

It is a bit troubling to see police ‘take a knee’ after what happened to Floyd. The symbolism seems well confused. Like, please do not ‘take a knee on our necks’.

James Conner

6th June 2020 at 5:42 am

You obviouls haven’t seen the other video which shows how the cops struggled to get the guy out of the car. He was putting up a hell of a fight and he was a big bloke. In that situation you don’t generally get results by asking politely.

Andrew Mawdsley

6th June 2020 at 9:45 am

ZP. While the knee on the neck was obviously deliberate, utterly unnecessary and sickening. Is there really any need to desecrate Britain’s most prominent war memorial, of for the police to bebase themselves in front of a baying mob?

Also, however you feel about the lockdown. There are still many people who are vulnerable to C19 and they may come into contact with one of the protesters who has not being maintaining social distancing. That in itself would be unfair to the person infected and may result in an unlawful death (as the protester would have knowingly taken the decision to flout th C19 guidelines).

An unwillingness to condemn these actions (as some Spiked commentators have refused to do) is showing a piss poor understanding of the effect it has on anyone other than those protesting.

Christopher Tyson

5th June 2020 at 8:01 pm

I did post under another article about the hypocrisy of black activists, which has been moderated. There was a pretty tasteless joke there so maybe that was it. The other joke was that most of the so-called black activists in the UK today have taken the knee in front of Her majesty or some other lesser Royal.
Perhaps my jokes detracted from my serious points about the lack of democracy within the so-called black community, the lack of rationality, the failure to reign in emotionalism or give it proper context, the mis-use of history, and the adoption fixed narratives which are not open to contestation. I also tried to explain why black radicals aren’t really very radical; a defence against racism can unite all black people but at the same time it can result in significant differences and conflicts between black people being overlooked or disregarded. White people, some well meaning, some frightened, will often accept the utterances of black activists uncritically; often the more emotive and militant that black activists are, the more, well-meaning or frightened, white people are unwilling to challenge them. I am not a racism denier, but I think that the preoccupation with racism is itself damaging to black people, and of course the white liberals who provide the black activists with a platform seem to exempt themselves from the scattergun charges of racism. White liberals can make or break a black activists, they hand out the invites an write the headlines, they can also withdraw support when things turn difficult, we seen this in various conflicts around the world, egging people on, then deserting them.

Christopher Tyson

5th June 2020 at 9:16 pm

After the Brixton Riot of 1981, the Conservative Government sought to create a ‘black middle class’ not because this was a good thing in itself, but for the sake of national security. For the British state, race has been a security matter. The Conservatives had no interest in the respectable black working class, the lower middle class or the middle class. What they wanted was a political class, a subsidiary colonial government; people they could do business with, shysters, opportunists, charlatans and Labour Party activists. These people grabbed the reins in and after 1982 and they are still there.
White people are being told to look into the mirror, many are flagellating themselves in the most servile of ways, but black activists why aren’t they looking in the mirror? What have they achieved in the last 40 years? By there own propaganda of the last week or so, we can deduce that they have achieved nothing; the race initiatives, committees, workshops, universities and workplaces inclusion and diversity policies, all of this has come to nothing, and those of us who have been saying for twenty years that these people are worse than useless have been vindicated. Of course they won’t see it that way, they are more self-righteous than ever, it simply won’t occur to them that they are culpable in anyway, they will simply call for more of the above, more anti-racism.
Perhaps these people do not want to look in the mirror because of their own self-loathing, I don’t need a white person or any other person to tell me that my life matters, I don’t need to convince anyone that my life matters.

Christopher Tyson

5th June 2020 at 11:03 pm

From the 1980’s onwards race in the UK has been regarded as a security matter. The management of black people has moved away from policing to ‘nudge’, behavioural analysis, and psychological intervention. Those who once campaigned against sectioning and treatment without consent in the mental health system are now a minority voice. The empire of mental health, wellness, counselling is now in the ascendancy, supported by Royals, schools, universities, mentors and black activists.
In schools and work places, curriculums have been challenged. A simplistic view of ‘black history’ is now imposed and supported in workplaces, mainly in the public sector, and adopted by local councils. Many have to complete mandatory training to examine their unconscious biases.The developments are carried out behind closed doors and imposed on employees and students. People who dare to question these trends risk disciplinary measures or loss of employment. Indeed many do not wish to rock the boat or question these things. They accept these impositions as legitimate.
Despite the back that these trends have been occurring for around twenty years, some have taken advantage of events in the UK to assert the need for more anti- racism, more black history, more imposition. There is something close to dogma and insanity in today’s anti-racism; the idea that racism can be eliminated from the world; that ideas in people’s heads can be erased, should be erased; that people’s thoughts should be controlled and policed.
Who defines ‘racism’? Who polices ‘racism’? Self-appointed, leaders, commentators, activists, artists, celebrities, given a technocratic gloss by behavioural sciences (class prejudices in pseudo scientific jargon).
How is it that fervent black radicals turn into pussycats before the white liberal media? The liberals can say ‘not us, the racism is over there’. The radicals can guilt trip the journalist to pressure the politicians, to bring about the anti-racist state. Most leading politicians in recent years have paid lip service to anti-racism. So with the Royals, the Church, schools, universities, civil service, political parties, police force all signed up to anti-racism, where is the institutional racism? Institutional is a device whereby anti-racism can justify itself indefinitely; a racism that is everywhere and nowhere, those with power and influence in society are not individually accountable. This nebulous character of racism does not make for effective anti-racist propaganda, anti-racist propaganda in the cause of anti-racism which is an end in itself. The death of a black man in the US caused by a policeman and caught on camera, gives the anti-racist industry a hook on which to hang its hat.
I have been commenting for sometime about ‘the black ideology’, an irrational, dogmatic, chauvinistic and increasingly anti-white outlook. This ideology goes uncriticised and is generally supported, in varying degrees by white politicians of various stripes, and by black politicians, celebrities, millionaires, sports stars and media. There is an absent of intellectual challenge. Indeed this powerful coalition can define for itself the mean of what it is to be black, to paraphrase the US politician Joe Biden, if you don’t get with the programme ‘you ain’t black’, where did Obama’s vice president pick up that kind of attitude.

NEIL DATSON

6th June 2020 at 6:09 am

Interesting comments Christopher. Possibly – to summarise what you are suggesting – is that the recent demonstrations that were nominally about an event that took place in a foreign land were actually an irritating by-product of UK government action in the 1980s?

Brandy Cluster

5th June 2020 at 11:30 pm

It’s hard to disagree with much you’ve written here. In Australia we have people on the streets supporting “Black Lives Matter” and a national indigenous population which endures violence and family dysfunction at historically high rates – far higher than the rest of the population. Yet, NOT A WORD ABOUT THIS from the Left and activists. It’s OK to leave the aboriginal population to exist exclusively, removed from Australian society and if that involves high violence, drunkeness and rape then BEST IT IS NEVER DISCUSSED. The person who raises this is herself an indigenous women who wants to enter federal politics and has been on the ‘hate lists’ of the aboriginal industry. The hypocrisy is so rank you’d find it hard to, well, breathe.

A two year old girl in a remote aboriginal community was last year reported to have Syphilis. Not a word, not a single word or protest about this and other similar atrocities!!!

Christopher Tyson

6th June 2020 at 12:48 pm

in response to Neil Datson:
There’s a typo in there somewhere where I refer to ‘events in the UK’ should be events in the US, so yes I’d agree with you there, about the protests in the UK being ‘nominally’ about events in the US.

‘an irritating by-product’? On reflection I’d take into account the fact that these kids have been under house arrest and locked out of school and college for however many months, their futures are up in the air, and there are concerns about an impending rise in unemployment. Taking that into account there conduct on the demo was pretty restrained.
The black American actor Clarke Peters was on newsnight last night and he seemed pleased with the international support. International support for you cause can matter a lot, but you would hope for robust and resolute support by people who understand what is going on in your country, and that they are not vicariously using your troubles for their own ends.
BLM is an American brand, I don’t like the brand (all that writhing around on the ground playing dead, the passive aggression, ‘please don’t hurt me’, all a bit demeaning), and I don’t think importing it in to the UK serves us well.
How about a British version of the BLM slogan? ‘Your life matters to you, I’ll decide for myself what matters to me, thank you very much’, might require an xx-large t-shirt.

Mor Vir

6th June 2020 at 2:32 pm

‘Nothing really matters…. to meeeeeeeeeeee.’

Freddie had a great voice live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsl3gBVO2k4

NEIL DATSON

6th June 2020 at 3:59 pm

Christopher, thanks for coming back on that. I am at one with you as regards my sympathy for young people who are frustrated by this nonsensical lockdown policy, but it’s almost tragic that their expressions of unrest should reveal themselves in what are really little more than mass demonstrations of collective humbug. Couldn’t they engage in a huge, unauthorised, football tournament or something like that?

I have been on a few demonstrations in my time, but not for a good number of years, and I’m really not keen on even the most peaceful ones. However, demonstrations about the domestic problems and politics of foreign countries are especially silly. They’re invariably so selective. And media driven. An American actor being rolled out by Newsnight? Well, he wasn’t going to suggest that British people should mind their own business was he? If he had wanted to say that, Newsnight wouldn’t have invited him on. It’s bad enough when our own ‘celebrities’ are asked for their opinions. Has Newsnight ever found a French actor to speak up for the Gilets Jaunes, or suggest people here take to the streets in sympathy? Can you even imagine the possibility?

Francis Lonergan

5th June 2020 at 6:19 pm

Murder hasn’t been established, so why are you calling it that. Irresponsible!!

Robert Pay

5th June 2020 at 6:18 pm

I live in Manhattan…the trashing of shops and the death of five people (all black…) is ignored or a footnote. The only concrete proposal is to defund the police…

Brandy Cluster

5th June 2020 at 11:34 pm

I’m sorry for you and your sad, increasingly neurotic nation. No good came come to you from this. Trump’s days are numbered but do not expect the Democrats to have a single clue about how to return jobs to the USA; they’ll just soak ‘the rich’ for more social welfare. “Down and down they go, round and round they go…” (“That Old Black Magic” by Harold Arlen/Johnny Mercer).

T Zazoo

6th June 2020 at 1:39 am

Mrs Kettle, meet Mr Black.

Gordon De Gopher

5th June 2020 at 5:36 pm

“Can America overcome the racial divide?”

To hear a lot of activists commentating over the past few days they would say the racial divide has got worse over the past few decades.

It’s weird because these are the same names that have been commentating for those past few decades. So what they’re really saying is their activism has failed over the past few decades but when you listen to them they’re saying exactly the same things and coming up with exactly the same ideas (or lack of) as they’ve said all that time.

So it’s that old saying; doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Unless of course they’ve got exactly the result they wanted, and let’s face it, if you work in the US in racial politics and diversity, when the US overcomes the racial divide you’re out of a job!

Mark Houghton

5th June 2020 at 6:00 pm

If the racial divide has got worse then how come the USA had Barrack Obama as President for 8 years?
Another question for the left – if there is a racial divide what concrete proposals do you have to fit it – bet you it’ll be something along the lines of ‘give black people free money’.

Mark Houghton

5th June 2020 at 4:53 pm

“The team discusses the murder of George Floyd and its aftermath.” – dear oh dear. You morons are either being lazy or deliberately deceitful. Until there is a court case in the US where someone is found guilty of murder then to call it ‘murder’ is rather jumping the gun. I did expect journalists to be precise in their language but clearly my expectation was wrong.

Mike Oliver

5th June 2020 at 8:26 pm

Agreed. It’s up to a jury to decide what kind of homicide this was.
Is it likely the officer in question intended to kill, while also being aware that he was being filmed?
He was certainly not duly concerned about the welfare of his suspect while using a dangerous restraining technique.
The toxicology reports suggesting several illegal drugs in George Floyd’s system may allow the defence to suggest that played a part in his death.
My guess is that the case will take years to come to court, partly to allow the heat to die down, and that he will be convicted of manslaughter and given a long sentence to attempt to mollify those that would like him to get the death penalty. But I expect there to be a media circus around the sentencing hearing and further riots to ensue when he is found not guilty of murder.

T Zazoo

6th June 2020 at 1:41 am

Sorry Mike, no death penalty in Minnesota. Not since 1911.

Mike Oliver

6th June 2020 at 2:09 am

I didn’t say it was possible, only that some would want it.

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