‘The Sun will rise tomorrow and men still won’t be women’

The question ‘What is a woman?’ ought to have an obvious answer – an adult, human female. For millennia, sex has been understood as a matter of biology. But in Australia, womanhood has effectively been redefined in law to be inclusive of men. When Sall Grover set up Giggle for Girls in 2020, she intended for it to be a women-only social-media app. But last month, an Australian court ruled that it had indirectly discriminated against a man who identifies as a woman when it barred him from the platform. Tickle vs Giggle essentially established that women have no right to establish single-sex spaces in Australia.

Sall joined Brendan O’Neill for last week’s episode of The Brendan O’Neill Show to discuss what the judgement means for women’s rights. What follows is an edited extract from their conversation. Listen to the full thing here.

Brendan O’Neill: What was the Tickle vs Giggle case all about?

Sall Grover: A few years ago I decided to create an app solely for women – and I called it Giggle. We were getting ready to launch it in 2020, but during beta testing, thousands of men inundated various app stores with one-star reviews – calling us transphobic or TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists). In my naivety at the time, I said to my mum that this whole thing would probably blow over quickly. That did not happen.

In early 2022, a man who goes by the name of Roxanne Tickle filed an Australian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) complaint against me and Giggle, alleging gender-identity discrimination. Basically, he had on-boarded Giggle – which was not unusual for men to attempt – and at some point I kicked him off the app. I don’t remember exactly when, as I was used to occasionally removing men from the platform. After that, Tickle quickly became someone of note in my life. He repeatedly called and texted my phone. Amazingly, the judge thought that this was reasonable behaviour – even though I was scared because he had access to my contact details.

The AHRC exists to settle situations like this before they go to court, often by interpreting the law. But it treated me as if I was guilty from the very beginning, using the Australian Sex Discrimination Act in an ideological way. Now, I knew that I had done nothing wrong. I knew that men cannot be women. But to settle out of court, I would have had to agree to let Tickle on the app; along with all men who claimed to be women. I would have had to undergo sex and gender ‘education’. And I would have been required to moderate what women are allowed to say on the app, so as not to offend men who claim to be women. I decided to fight back. I said no to conciliation, knowing that there was a risk of it going to the federal court – and it did. Two years later – last month – the judge ruled that I had committed indirect discrimination against Tickle.

I was always emotionally, mentally prepared for this outcome. I was ready to go all the way. Even if we had won last month, the other side would be appealing. It would have been a false victory. There are 28 days to appeal, and in the next 15 days or so, we’ll have our appeal in.

O’Neill: It would seem that, in Australia, gender identity overrides the reality of sex. Is that the fundamental takeaway of the federal court’s ruling?

Grover: Essentially, yes. Gender ideology has already changed the law in Australia, without many of us even knowing about it. Women’s sex-based rights are enshrined in the Sex Discrimination Act of 1984, which is based on CEDAW – the UN’s Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. This is essentially an international bill of rights for women. But in 2013, under Julia Gillard’s Labor government, gender identity was incorporated into the law and the definitions of man and woman were removed. This was completely and utterly malicious. Taking out these definitions has led us to a point where people can question what a woman is.

This change is also why, in Australia, we don’t have gender-recognition certificates. Instead, men who claim to be women actually change the sex marker on their birth certificate. This has created the concept of ‘legal sex’. As Tickle vs Giggle has proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the judicial system holds that legal sex is now the only thing that matters. It proved that our worst nightmare has come true: biological sex currently has no weight in Australian law, even though the Sex Discrimination Act still technically protects it.

O’Neill: Some have said that the federal court ruling has contributed to the abolition of womanhood. Would you say that’s true?

Grover: The Sun will rise tomorrow and men still won’t be women. Biologically speaking, absolutely nothing has changed. But in the legal framework of it all, the situation has changed completely. Women’s rights did not happen by accident. Women have fought for every single right that we have in Australia. Women could not get a passport without their husband or father’s approval until 1983 – the year before the Sex Discrimination Act was passed. We fought for these rights in law and politics using language. That’s the best tool you have to fight for your rights.

When you abolish what it means to be a woman, when you actually destroy that language, you destroy a woman’s ability to talk about her rights as part of an actual class of people that are separate from men. After all, male-only spaces can exist pretty easily in society without the need for legislation. In male-only gyms, loud music and giant men punching each other will often encourage women to just self-exclude. But when you set something up for women, there will always be a demographic of men who immediately want to get involved. That’s why we need legal protection for women’s spaces, and it’s also why language is so important. It’s the ultimate weapon of trans activists, and we’ve got to take away their ammunition. Terms like ‘transgender’ or ‘cisgender’ obscure the fact that we are not talking about a subclass of women here. We’re talking about men.

Globally speaking, women’s rights are in a really, really bad place right now. You just have to look at the Taliban’s misogynistic laws in Afghanistan. Afghan women are in a very different fight than we are, but it’s still a fight for women’s rights. The Taliban know exactly what a woman is, and they are using that against them. In Australia, the elites don’t know what a woman is – and they’re using that against us. It just goes to show that you have to protect women’s rights from literally every angle because, in an instant, they can be gone.

Sall Grover was talking to Brendan O’Neill on The Brendan O’Neill Show. Listen to the full conversation here: