Millennial men need to man up

The attack on traditional notions of masculinity is creating a generation of insecure incompetents.

Mica Soellner

Topics Culture USA

Modern feminism spends a lot of time attacking toxic masculinity. And this attack, which often turns into an attack on traditional gender roles, is having serious consequences. It is leading to the churning out of insecure, non-competitive men, who can’t seem to manage basic life skills. It also means that trying to find an interesting person to connect with, let alone a life partner, is becoming more and more of a challenge with Generation Woke.

Accusing someone of toxic masculinity has become a way to denigrate any man who doesn’t comply with the modern demands of feminism. It’s a term that can be used almost indiscriminately. It can be used to put down men who have, say, a pro-life stance on abortion, or have simply been promoted in the workplace above a female counterpart.

Unsurprisingly, the accusation of toxic masculinity has been levelled at a whole host of conservative male figures, such as Fox News host Tucker Carlson, Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, and, of course, Donald Trump. But it’s not just conservatives on the receiving end of feminists’ wrath. Actress Meryl Streep was attacked for suggesting the idea of ‘toxic masculinity’ can hurt young boys. We’ve even seen it being used by businesses to sell male products, with razor company Gillette urging men to be better.

What’s odd about the obsession with toxic masculinity is that very few men today actually showcase any of its characteristics. As Forbes reported in 2017, millennial men are redefining masculinity, with fewer than a third of 18- to 29-year-old men claiming to feel ‘completely masculine’. The alpha male is a rarely spotted animal in 2019.

But whether millennial men feel at ease with their masculinity is less important than whether we are accelerating into a society which demonises the very characteristics we are born with. Western culture has shifted from welcoming home brave 20-year-old men who have risked their lives in war to celebrating guys who have decided to wear pink hats on a Women’s March. The cultural attack on masculinity is widespread, too, having made its way into education, the workplace and even romantic relationships.

Trying to date in a culture that denigrates so many traditional masculine acts, from holding a door open for a woman to paying on the first date, is becoming increasingly challenging. It’s even creating an environment where men are reluctant to talk about things for fear of being accused of mansplaining. Instead, men increasingly seem to be happy riding in the backseat. I, along with many of my female peers, have had my fair share of first/last dates where guys seem to be content with still having their parents pay their bills well into their 20s. Many can’t seem to manage basic tasks of ‘adulting’, like cooking a simple meal or doing their own laundry.

I can’t speak for all women, but I would think most are hoping to be someone’s partner, not his mother. I want someone to challenge my ideas and thoughts, not constantly agree with them out of fear of offending me. I want a man to be able to support my career as I could his, while also playing an equal part in our home life. If I fail at something, I want someone to be honest about my shortcomings instead of preaching about the systemic barriers I may face as a woman, just to show how woke he is.

There is a way to challenge behaviour that perpetuates sexism. But this self-apologising culture we are creating is not that way. And it is having serious consequences. If we keep this up, we’ll be cultivating a generation of painfully insecure men who revel in their incompetence. For the sake of the future, I’m urging millennial men to ignore the false messages, grow up and man up.

Mica Soellner is a journalist based in the Midwest of the US.

To enquire about republishing spiked’s content, a right to reply or to request a correction, please contact the managing editor, Viv Regan.


Itsa Setup

27th November 2019 at 9:07 pm

Commented with links to sources. Already taken down. Sad.

Agustus Haggerty

7th October 2019 at 3:20 pm

Camille Paglia had written extensively about “toxic masculinity” and how women need to “woman up”. A good place to start—”Perspective Needed—Feminism’s Lie: Denying Reality About Sexual Power And Rape”.

Hugh Bryant

4th October 2019 at 10:42 pm

I’m all for feminism. Nothing is quite so much fun as winding them up.

Bill Williams

4th October 2019 at 10:16 am

MGTOW is a real lifesaver today for many of us smart single men since the women today are a lot different from the old days, which now they’re so very pathetic altogether. Feminism is everywhere today which brought out the worst in women unfortunately. Back in the old days most women were the very complete opposite of today, and real ladies as well which meeting women back then would’ve been no trouble at all either.

A Game

7th October 2019 at 2:53 pm

How are your “smash and dash” stats going? Hope you’re not dragging the chain, bringing down the batting average.

jessica christon

3rd October 2019 at 8:03 pm

@ Claire, that’s part of the “projecting” I was talking about in a reply that has been “awaiting moderation” all day. I didnt say anything nasty, so possibly this character has some special privileges around here.

Take care.

Claire D

4th October 2019 at 7:31 am

Thanks Jessica, you too. Moderation can be tiresome can’t it, I’m guessing there are flag words or combinations of words which alert an algorithm but who knows.

A Game

7th October 2019 at 2:43 pm

Oh, look out! The moll patrol is onto me!

Claire D

9th October 2019 at 5:54 am

To call two other female commenters who disagree with you ‘ molls ‘ (sex workers) says more about you and your prejudices than it does about us I think.

A Game

16th October 2019 at 2:00 pm

To call two women who are trying to turn a comment section on a website into a smug little pile-on of disapproval entitles me to decide you to be anything I like.
I don’t buy into the myth that women are perfect or above insulting. How on earth did you think I did?
In Austraaaalia, to call someone a moll isn’t the same as whore, slut, prostitute. It just means a woman being a total dick. And in this case, if the shoe fits…

Gerard Barry

3rd October 2019 at 6:51 pm

I work in a field dominated by women and I am literally afraid to open my mouth in case I say the “wrong” thing. They’re all university educated, middle-class princesses and, accordingly, tend to have very “liberal” views. Whether it’s abortion, immigration, “diversity” in the workplace or some other issue, I am terrified of expressing my more conservative views in case it creates an unpleasant working atmosphere. (The few men who work in the field are soy boys and could barely be described as men at all.) Telling men to “man up” is all well and good but, male or female, we’re all afraid of being socially ostracised, are we not? I sometimes dream about working in a more male-dominated field, it must be so much easier, psychologically speaking.

Ven Oods

6th October 2019 at 12:13 am

,”…we’re all afraid of being socially ostracised, are we not?”
If you feel unable to air your own views, surely that’s self-imposed social ostracisation?

Gerard Barry

7th October 2019 at 11:21 am

Perhaps. But work is hard enough as it is – I don’t want to fall out my colleagues as well!

Luisa Puleo

8th November 2019 at 5:43 pm

Perhaps hearing alternative opinions from people who have been marginalised and undermined in society will help you have a wider view of different voices and experiences that aren’t your own. I’m sure we can all learn something from each other and be more inclusive of those who’s voices are constantly being undermined. Its important when your are in a position of privilege, in this instance being a man in our society is a privilege, to be more inclusive and less ignorant to those who have been pushed down or silenced in society. We need to think forward to include all voices but most importantly those of marginalised groups. Maybe if you are worried about saying something that won’t have positive feedback from your colleagues, instead of staying silent, ask them what their opinions are try to understand why something may be offensive. I know not every womans opinion will be the same, its just about understanding why things can cause an offence and then making a judgement yourself. How will you ever know if you don’t ask.

michael savell

1st October 2019 at 11:25 pm

Stephen Kerry,”40 years ago when your friends started marrying”How many friends did you leave behind when you got married?I am 82 and,as you get older you start to wonder whatever became of them.The first thing a new wife would do is to remove her husband’s influences and ,it seems to me that times have not changed in that respect.
Men refuse to get married because the moment they do they are vulnerable to the vagaries that the feminists have created within the family due mainly to authorities who do not and never will understand that women can be every bit as nasty as the men they attack on a regular basis Every Institution takes their part,every law takes away more male rights and free speech,,that which denigrates the other sex is seen as “fair game “when spoken by women yet it is still seen as heinous when spoken by men.Unfair advantages have been given to women which is why Jordan Peterson sticks by his equal opportunities against equal outcomes.Now ,it appears that the alpha men or elite will start suffering the false accusations we shall probably see the law come down on feminists but,maybe too late,this is now becoming the end game.

Andrew Mawdsley

1st October 2019 at 1:53 pm

Blimey. It all seems quite angry. Maybe if you’re a fella, just be a fella. You know drink beer, have a fight, treat your significant other with respect that sort of thing. Just a thought. Right, I’m off to build a shed and have a pint.

Ward Anthony

30th September 2019 at 8:02 am

“I can’t speak for all women, but I would think most are hoping to be someone’s partner, not his mother.”

What an astonishing statement. Up to the 1960’s a woman’s role was largely as a wife/mother and both sexes took it for granted. Almost three decades into the 21st century and has nothing changed?
At least same sex couples can now get married…. but for them it was about ‘equality’. With what dare I ask?

Gary Smith

29th September 2019 at 1:13 pm

“grow up and man up”

I’m so sick of this phrase. Don’t you dare tell me or other men what to do. I’m gonna do whatever the hell I want and you can’t make me be your obedient dog.

Claire D

29th September 2019 at 6:45 am

This is in answer to A Game.

From reading some of your comments you seem to be suffering from rage that you are a woman and not a man, even perhaps that there are two sexes at all. You also seem furious that life involves pain, effort, difficult choices, compromises and courage and even then you will still have to suffer, there is no escape, there is no life without suffering. BUT, that suffering does not make us victims of power relations. Unless we want to be victims of course. You seem to want to be a victim.

Women who had slings fitted chose of their own free will to put themselves into the hands of doctors peddling a brand new surgical procedure. That procedure was designed with goodwill to help them; it failed, it was a disaster. Whose fault was it ? the designer ? the doctors and surgeons ? the women themselves ? No doubt each one of those bear some responsibility for what happened.

You seem to be furious that there is such a thing as childbirth and that it is women that do it, that somehow it’s men’s and society’s fault when it’s just a fact of life. For most women it is a powerful, joyful and satisfying experience. We do pay for it physically, some of us more than others, that’s the luck of the draw I’m afraid, but we’re not victims because of it, it’s the price you pay for living.

As for housework, cooking and taking care of family, whether that’s elderly parents, husbands, lovers, children or the whole caboodle, why not ? what’s wrong with doing such valuable, creative, important, actually vital, work for the people you love and are responsible for ? Someone has to do it, better to divide the work situation as each family sees fit. What would you prefer ? that we all live in single units and hand over our beautiful, precious children to be brought up in municipal nurseries by underpaid women who might have hearts of gold but equally might not ?

You need to stop imagining you are a victim, find out why you are so angry about the facts of life, I suggest it goes pretty deep, come to terms with it, and get on and live your life instead of looking for someone to blame because life is’nt quite what you expected.

A Game

3rd October 2019 at 6:54 am

Well, well, well. Talk about read what you want rather than what is actually being said. And listen to you, fighting for female agency. Yay, you go girl!
The sling was brought up (a procedure that had protest from certain quarters) to illustrate that women have all sorts of problems, via their biology alone… and are getting on with it. No more, no less. Men complaining of the toll physical work takes on their bodies… I’m pointing out everyone is in the same boat. Any notion that anyone else is getting off scott-free is nonsense. Yeah, I guess I was too subtle.

You’ve pasted onto me what you wanted to believe I was saying. You haven’t read what I’ve said at all. You’ve ready nothing I’ve ever said. (Your prerogative, but you can’t then carry on with your kitschy rhetoric, condemning me for what I think… of which you patently have no idea.
I think I’ve even copped it for being anti binary. Lol. Um, no…)
So… to argue that men and women are human beings and should cut some slack towards each other… aren’t I the radical, it seems. Touting my victim mentality and male envy… thanks, I didn’t know about that.
You are as much an identitarian as those you rail against. Obviously you’re just peeved the other side is winning at present.
And I’m gonna say it.
You are as dumb as a box of hair. G’luck.

Claire D

4th October 2019 at 8:17 am

The use of insults are a sign that the argument is lost, they are a last resort (that is assuming one is capable of rational argument in the first place) and put an end to reasoned debate.

A Game

7th October 2019 at 2:28 pm

You are arguing with a ghost. You are taking swings at a person that is not on this page. That is what makes you dumb. A different opinion? Whatever. Knock yourself out. (I incessantly refer to men/women, woman/man… that would suggest I don’t see sex as a social construct… just a suggestion, mind… free acknowledgement that women are the child bearers… no, no, not according to you… that men and women compliment each other… no, no, I’m in denial, apparently, of my own opinion.)
I’m not angry. I suffer from surfeit of earnestness.

Claire D

9th October 2019 at 7:37 am

@A Game

You don’t deserve it but I will add this; by abusing your fellow commenters you do yourself a disservice. If they say something you disagree with then why not argue without using abusive language ? The endgame of rudeness and abuse is loss. I expect calling me names gives you a momentary feeling of power and satisfaction but you will not end up feeling any better.

I sympathise with earnestness, in fact I sympathise with anger, there’s nothing wrong with feeling angry, it’s how you choose to express it that matters.

Best wishes.

A Game

16th October 2019 at 2:48 pm

I don’t buy into your premise of what I deserve or don’t deserve. That would be assuming I care either way. But thanks. And I will insult as I see fit… you know, sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade. And you need to reread your little diatribe at me… you go for a jugular, high on your self righteousness, without batting an eye. Did I care that you insulted me? Nope. I cared that you were in attack mode, about opinions I hadn’t expressed. Nonsensical. But I suppose I was to hold your hand and gently walk you through your wrongness. Not gonna happen.
And now you’ve turned all manipulative and pompous. Yeah, you trot about on that higher plane. And whilst you’re up there, stop dictating to others what the rules of engagement are.

H McLean

29th September 2019 at 2:42 am

The problem with toxic masculinity is it is now synonymous with masculinity – any masculinity – all thanks to the feminist culture of hating men. Ever wonder why we never hear anything about toxic femininity? Even the notion of men being hen-pecked has all but disappeared from popular culture, even though it continues undiminished. I’m sorry, if you call yourself a feminist then you are a disgrace and should be ashamed.

A Game

29th September 2019 at 1:28 am

You all have Stockholm Syndrome. But the problem is, you’re all in denial of having Stockholm Syndrome. The result is an incessant blast of Moving Pictures, but you think you’re singing Public Enemy.

H McLean

29th September 2019 at 2:47 am

You should watch and deliberate on Karen Straughan’s astonishingly insightful clip “Feminism and the Disposable Male”. It will set you straight on a number of fronts.

A Game

3rd October 2019 at 7:03 am

I might get around to it, cheers.
You people are so blind. You rail against Greta but your attitude towards any given topic is identical. Its black and white and no room for anything else. Blame shifting, powerlessness, yet relationships is one area people are still empowered… walk away if they aren’t very nice… men or women… No self determination, just a victim of everyone around you.
I know the faults of feminism. But that doesn’t get men off the hook. That this is what you are all arguing… its so creepy… and embarrassing.

You Wish

29th September 2019 at 12:47 am

Ermmm, having your bills paid into your 20’s by your parents is called White privilege.

H McLean

29th September 2019 at 2:48 am

How very racist of you.

Brandy Cluster

29th September 2019 at 12:27 am

I shouldn’t worry folks. Men will soon recover their ‘toxic masculinity’ when there’s a next war and they’re needed to save the bony hides of feminists. And the feminists who scream about being ‘assaulted’ (touched on the arm) by toxic men will be one and the same who’ll be demanding to be in the field of battle alongside their toxic male counterparts. GO FIGURE!!!

Luisa Puleo

8th November 2019 at 6:02 pm

You mean the wars started by men? haha. Not everyone continues to think the way they’ve been told and programmed (like robots) growing up. Try listening to an alternative opinion that doesn’t involve your privilege as a man. For me, as a white person, I could never comment on the experiences of black people as I wouldn’t know what that was like. But I try to educate myself (outside of what society tell me, which is that white people are superior) and be more inclusive of those voices that are often silenced. I know its hard when you are in a privileged position to give space to those who aren’t but I think we’d be much better people because of it. After all, the privilege of being white or male hasn’t been earned. Punch up at the systems that have structured our society in such a way that we have to conform to these ideologies, don’t be punching down and further silencing those who need to be heard the most.

T Patrick

29th September 2019 at 12:23 am

Feminists to blame. Sure. Parents to blame? Fuck yes. Sitting back and letting your whiney ass kid play on your iPad for 8 hours a day is a great way for him to grow up to be a pussy. Buy him a bike or a motorcycle. Kick him outside for a few hours a day.

If parents raise their kids right, they won’t even acknowledge the bullshit feminism out there once they’re old enough to see what it is.

Michael Lynch

29th September 2019 at 12:19 am

Modern feminists are a dangerous threat to feminism. It seems that modern women now want to be reduced to state of not being held accountable for their own emotions in addition to their actions. A kind of neo Victorian state of being protected from themselves. It all reminds me of a line Jack Nicholson delivered in a his film ‘As Good As It Gets’ from few years back. He plays a Romance Novelist who suffers from chronic OCD. The illness reduces him to anxious wreck when confronted with the outside world and he has great difficulty with normal social interactions. On a visit to his publishers he finds himself cornered by an over enthusiastic receptionist who is a massive fan of his work. She wants to know how he writes women so well. He replies “I take a man and strip him of all personal responsibility” – it’s a funny line and was obviously not intended to be taken seriously at the time. I’m not so sure how seriously we should take it nowadays though?

A Game

3rd October 2019 at 7:59 am

M Lynch:
You are on a website that has women writers always arguing about what feminism gets wrong. Why is that forgotten so easily? Women, plenty of women, have plenty of issues of modern feminism. And they don’t feel they have to sell women down the river as a whole to disagree with feminism as a political exercise.
Its as tainted as all political movements. The careerists, the self interested… and that you are all paying attention to how it works with the neo liberal project, but refuse to open your eyes that its just more of the same in the name of feminism. Its not real feminism. Its political point scoring. Its identity politics. But this one you’ve taken really personally.
Identity politics has decided to own racial civil rights. Does that mean to disagree with the identitarians means you are against racial civil rights? But feminism… well… women and their politics must be blighted.

A Game

28th September 2019 at 11:07 pm

Placing men, convicted of sexual/violent crimes against women in women’s prison would indicate that maybe female empowerment is all style, no substance. There is the appearance of it, but dig deeper… nup.
Men/women is as much a class war of economics as everything else. The middle class woman rarely gives a flying f**k in her feminist politics about the working class woman. Gender pay gap is the classic marker there. (J Williams did a great hatchet job on some dopey book a professional feminist wrote, pointing out that very thing.)

This article sounds like someone has been catching up with Jordan Peterson. He states this very thing, that these infantile, “woke” blokes are not what is good for women, that the relationships with these unweaned, whiney twits are fraught and unhappy. He made this point in the infamous, “So what you are really saying…” car crash.

Here’s the thing. These woke fu**ers are not actually more broadminded or less sexist or less conditioned. When tested to support women, they come up with names like “TERF”. Happily. They rejoice in the idea of women can be beaten if they are “bigots”. Its a lie. They aren’t any different to the men who can stand there and stone a woman to death, if society says its okay.
The home life the writer describes… what is that hinging on? Mummy as servant. So what are they really looking for in a woman? A mother, servant, wife, sex toy… Just like all men in history ever have. Except now, there’s the fun that she will also go to work and bring home half the bacon. Its better than ever, playing this woke game. Cause this time ’round, she feels liberated.

Men are extremely versatile beasts. They adapt and change and women have gone about taking their place next to men in society the wrong way, but its interesting that in order for them to take their place next to men in society, its always hinged on men agreeing to let them. That it has ended up weird and askew… its been a joint effort.

Unfortunately, anything tied to identity politics is a cluster f**k. Toxic masculinity, as a concept, is just more of the same propaganda without purpose, but there’s power to be had toeing this line and spouting this… humbug.

Crimes by men against women hasn’t shifted an iota. The same problems that vex women (what do I wear and what does it say about me and how will I use that to get what I want from the world? Perpetuating sexist stereotypes right there.) still exist, but with the added layer of trying to be everything to prove they deserved liberating.

You know you watch a show like Bridezilla (a sociological experiment. Ugh.) and you have these psychotically insecure women, acting like baby tyrants and these men just tuned out, tolerant. The first reaction is, she’s so awful, how is anyone marrying her?
Then you wonder why the man is putting up with it.
Then you realise what’s really going on. He’s putting up with it because he doesn’t love her enough, if at all, to care about her behaviour, the marriage is a means to an end, and every time they screw, he’s getting his own back, don’t you worry about that, and he gets a mother into the bargain. On some level, this woman knows this, senses this, and the tantrums etc, are the most basic, child-like tool of trying to force the person to show they truly love them. And they are right to be questioning the set up. Those men don’t love them.
Any person in your life, man to woman, woman to man, that doesn’t question strange/neurotic behaviour, is not your friend or does not love you.
Parents… look at the conflict you can have with them. Because they love you.

I love the line about the pink pussy hats at a woman’s march. The irony is, honing the male body to its peak beauty is done by the same tossers in the pussy hats. Strange dichotomy, aint it?

The Gilette add. Hot mess. Men are using traditional masculinity to stamp out… traditional masculinity. They are showing two versions of traditional masculinity. So what on earth is a young man watching that ad supposed to take from that? – Be strong, be brave, be powerful, but don’t be traditionally masculine.
There have always been qualities and flaws in traditional masculinity. But covering all of mankind in a blanket labelled toxic… WTF was ever going to be accomplished by doing that? (And heads up, peeps. MEN have participated in this stupidity, happily, making a buck in the doing, overseeing it, creating it. Its the same problem, across both sexes, of the PC set. Everything they have touched has turned to sh*t.)

Justen Man357

28th September 2019 at 10:51 pm

I created this account just to comment on this subject. I know I’ll get some great negative comments in reply but I don’t care.

I’m going to get right to the point. Feminists and young men are just as responsible for this as the other.

Feminists and even general women have been menimalizing and disregarding men for years and it’s finally catching up. Its in pop culture, it’s in every day society. They wonder where all the men are. I assure you we’re not putting up with that.

For this women are getting exactly what they deserve, men no longer care and they will find themselves at 40 and alone.

That being said there are still grear quality women out there that are supportive and feminine.

Men, be who you, don’t try and figure out what women want you to be, most don’t know until later in life in the first place.

Doing so is a losing game. The time and resources wasted on this endeavour is at far to great of a cost, do your thing and enjoy life.

Men in the modern area have a severe lack or masculine role models. Combine this with a lot of single moms raising kids and a lack of a nuclear family structure we get what we have now.

Missing male figures and it shows, it takes both Male and female parts to raise kids to be fully functional, stable, capable adults.

Toxic masculinity? No, a weak society that has no direction? Yes, what a joke.

Ven Oods

29th September 2019 at 9:20 pm

“I know I’ll get some great negative comments in reply but I don’t care”

I’d love to give some of the negative comment you crave, but your spiel was too incomprehensible.

” Men be who you… ?”

Stephen Kenny

28th September 2019 at 8:51 pm

It is rather extraordinary. ‘For the sake of the future’? For the sake of the motherland? or the Fatherland?

Why would any millennial male want to do this? What’s in it for them? It seems pretty astonishing that the few that do, actually do. I suppose there are some nice little modern men, who like this sort of househusband life, but I don’t suppose they’re quite what she’s talking about. Screaming abuse, if you cannot have what you want, isn’t going to help.

Becoming an adult is about becoming aware of consequences: Children smash their toys, and then complain that their toys are smashed. If you remove the benefits for men to being married, then it’s a little bizarre to complain that they aren’t getting married.

The idea of the patriarchy persuaded women that it was right to ‘push back’ against the male pressure of the patriarchy. Which is fine, unless there never was a patriarchy, in which case all you’r really doing it pushing men away, who were never doing anything except pushing against each other.

The women’s movement seems to think that whatever they do, men – the remnants of the ‘patriarchy’ – will always be trying to engage to ‘push them down’. So, whatever they do, there will always be men prepared to give them what they want.

The warning of decades has been that if men don’t have enough reasons to get married and give you what you want, then they won’t, and that you’ve only ever been pushing against the social structures that persuaded them to do so.
The men will be off doing the 21st century version of ‘fishing’, arguing about football, and trying to count the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

A Game

28th September 2019 at 11:14 pm

You’ve somehow latched onto “women are wanting marriage from men who don’t” idea from an article that doesn’t go anywhere near that.
Men are getting married. Men are in de facto relationships. Resistance to domesticity with the little woman is a myth. (Someone does need to tell women that, BTW.)
These millennial blokes, however, are weighing up the pros and cons. Staying at home, cheap, with mum-servant, but still get sex and snuggles in front of the telly with girlfriend, and until the same sweet deal is offered by the girlfriend, they’re not budging. Normally parents forced the issue. But they are now Gen X “liberated” try-hards.

Stephen Kenny

29th September 2019 at 12:29 am

Yes, I’m not just rewriting the article.
I’m suggesting that there is no reason for them to want to marry, so they aren’t, whereas the article is claiming that the reason is that they’re just a bit hopeless.

Were they absolutely unable to provide the things she wants, then that would be one thing, but I don’t think that is the case. They just don’t have the incentives to provide for her what she wants.

The living at homie thing is really quite immaterial – it’s very easy to rent a room somewhere, and carry on. If they can’t afford even that, then there is no chance of them living up to almost any of her requirements. She’s making an assumption that there is some benefit for them to do these things, so as to be able to provide what she wants. It would be simpler to just look at the evidence and say that they aren’t because they don’t particularly want to – not enough incentives.

Of course some men are marrying, but a far, far, smaller proportion than in previous decades.

Jim Lawrie

28th September 2019 at 6:05 pm

The 1980’s Mark I versions of these guys was known as a “new man” – adopting character traits and speech that they hoped would help them gain them sexual access to women, most of whom just sneered at them. What women once were contemptuous of is now on their ticklist. At least those who are “professional”, “educated”, and seek similar.
If they were to cast their net outside of the social pond in which they swim they would find what they are looking for, but would their own qualities match the catch?

A Game

29th September 2019 at 1:24 am

The 90s, the word for “progressive men” was “snag”.

Some women get it that a good man is a good man, no matter what his field of work is/background. Some men have realised that its no threat to their masculinity or worth if they are with a woman who is smarter and/or earns more than them and in the doing, can’t play a traditional “wife” role.
They are in the minority. Some, who are willing to give the above a try… fail. (It happens.) Then we’re back to your original point. The non triers.

I don’t know how much attention others pay to their fellow commenters, but I’m a little chatty, I’m a little opinionated. Men, so many men, in life, not so much on the internet, but in life, perhaps because of one’s female physicality being in front of them, have a problem with that. I’m a calm, friendly person. But I’m a woman saying things. It took a long time to realise that that was what was going on for a lot of men. It was deeply disappointing to find out. It wasn’t my starting point. And men who incessantly want to compete and undermine for no other purpose than to cut you down… they are repulsive. (And yes. Women play a similar game, for different reasons.)

Jim Lawrie

29th September 2019 at 3:54 pm

I was suggesting that the problem is not always the man.

I see young women who have the green light from society to treat men with cruelty simply because they are men. Many young men are not in retreat, they are in revulsion.

There are plenty of men working at a trade who are of high IQ and earn surprising amounts of money.

A Game

16th October 2019 at 2:26 pm

J Lawrie:
Apologies, I didn’t see this response.

Women are cruel to men. Men are cruel to women. Anyone saying any differently, are liars. Where women as victims gets more noise is because when men are cruel to women, it tends to involve the physical. Men have to own that aspect. Women do get bashed, they do get murdered in a way, on a scale, that just isn’t reciprocated. (Though Trans Women being included in women stats will start to see a turn… women suddenly as sex offenders and violent offenders not seen statistically before.)
My comment, I don’t know, I reread it… I’m agreeing that there are plenty of extremely worthy men who don’t have the preferred gloss of white collared, middle classdom that many women seem attracted to. (Frankly, those weasels will knife you in the back way before a working class man will. They are so… competitive and sneaky or something.)

Jerry Owen

28th September 2019 at 2:21 pm

I suffer from toxic masculinity. And I have no idea how to use the washing machine either .

Brandy Cluster

29th September 2019 at 12:29 am

It appalls me whenever I see documentaries about WW2 and all those airmen falling out of the skies over Europe. I keep thinking “oh, this is the face of toxic masculinity’. Away with it!!! Same at Normandy; toxic masculinity in abundance.

Gareth Edward KING

28th September 2019 at 12:30 pm

Can’t say I recognise the situation. Since 1996 living in Spain has meant that I see young men and women as tending to leave the parental nest much later than they would in the UK, whether that’s due to ‘toxic masculinity’, ‘family traditions’, a lack of job security or a general infantilism is hard to say. Spanish men are generally more ‘masculine’ than in the UK, but again that’s a trait that’s extremely hard to measure, for sure, men can’t cook here, I certainly can: I left home at 19. So, there’s the point of a generational difference too. Having said that, my British nephews also left home and married much earlier than they might’ve in Spain and there’s probably a 30-year age difference. In short, there are cultural differences and who may or may not be a ‘millenial’, which in itself is a term for debate.

Eric Lauder

28th September 2019 at 1:34 pm

“men can’t cook here”

That explain why they keep living together with women even if there’s a gendered law about domestic violence and gendered women’s courts, with hundreds thousands false accusations per year.

Just buy a microwave and a robot vacuum cleaner, for God’s sake: Chineses sold them for little sums.

Chris Hilton

28th September 2019 at 5:45 pm

“I want someone to challenge my ideas and thoughts, not constantly agree with them out of fear of offending me. ”
I can’t say I’ve met many women who would respond to that with anything but anger and insults whether one is right or wrong.

A Game

29th September 2019 at 1:14 am

Yes, there has been a long, well known correlation between cooking and domestic violence. (Am I being sarcastic?)

A Game

29th September 2019 at 1:36 am

You’ve completely hit it for 6. The Anglosphere is tearing itself apart with thus bunk, and other Euro countries are just concentrating, for the most, on their cultural traditions and the required shifts to modernity and fighting poverty. Other countries… well, there’s certainly room for improvement, but it aint this identitarian claptrap.

James Hillier

28th September 2019 at 12:07 pm

“If we keep this up, we’ll be cultivating a generation of painfully insecure men who revel in their incompetence. For the sake of the future, I’m urging millennial men to ignore the false messages, grow up and man up.”

Good advice. But very difficult in this environment. My teenage son has just finished school lessons about consent and rape-culture in which his teachers screened and endorsed videos featuring pink-haired feminists lecturing on the subject of “toxic masculinity”.

“Toxic masculinity” needs to be understood for what is is: a blood libel used by bigots to cast a demographic outgroup as inherently guilty and evil and thus unworthy of basic rights. It has no place in our discourse and certainly not in our schools.

As for young men, they certainly should reject all attempts to shame them as a group. They should take note of everyone who attempts this, in public and private life, and either ignore or obstruct them at every given opportunity.

Eric Lauder

28th September 2019 at 1:39 pm

It’s easy to address: just explain him that that’s due females are less sex-positive and have less sexual desire, therefore every sex in excess tend to be considered a violation by them.
So he’s not going to be hurted by consent lessons.
He’ll consider it like being accomodating and nice towards disabled people.

Eric Lauder

28th September 2019 at 1:44 pm

It worked fine with my son, he’s 15, already had two girlfriends.
Do not forget to add “do not tell them that they’re sexually semi-disabled, they know it’s true deep inside them and they take offence if they hear the truth”. Done.
And given males are those who must do the first approach, is going to be confirmed by facts every single day.

Claire D

28th September 2019 at 2:22 pm

You put it very well James.
I underplayed it in my comment but the whole ‘ toxic masculinity ‘ lie infuriates me also. It really is obnoxious.

James Hillier

28th September 2019 at 8:06 pm

Thanks Claire. And yes, toxic masculinity really is a hateful piece of work. Fully circular in its reasoning — if you protest against it or find it wanting as a concept, that just proves you have it — and designed both as a weapon and a shield. It’s truly hateful.

Ms_Vanilla Rose

28th September 2019 at 11:43 am

Oh, Mica, sugar-bee, I sort of feel sorry for you! Imagine truly believing that masculinity is the same as toxic masculinity!

Claire D

28th September 2019 at 11:37 am

As the mother of a son, now a man, all I can say is boys need their fathers, or a decent father figure/s, they need other boys, later men, to contest with, freedom to roam about (not easy in cities today), some danger and risk, reasonable discipline, and a sensible mother ( ! ). Obviously there are exceptions and they will make their different direction plain enough, of their own accord, when they are ready. Given those essentials most boys will grow into fine men.

Bringing up boys as if they are girls or neutral is cruel and damaging, it lets everybody down but most of all the child. Feminism is partly to blame but so is Post-Modernism with it’s denigration of the past and our ancestor’s achievements and ways of life. The changing face of employment is also relevant. Men are inherently much stronger physically than women, it is and should be a matter of appreciation to both sexes, but if work continues to be assisted by technology at the present rate or greater, then men’s strength will be needed less and less in the field of paid work. Men will need to find other outlets for their physical prowess for the sake of their mental as much as their physical health.

I hope men reading this will forgive me as a woman for writing about what is theirs not mine, their manhood.

Brandy Cluster

29th September 2019 at 12:32 am

Absolutely brilliant, Claire.

Claire D

29th September 2019 at 6:50 am

Thank you Brandy.

Sam Chapman

29th September 2019 at 7:05 am

Bravo!! I really couldn’t of said it better myself!

a watson

28th September 2019 at 9:32 am

The widespread attacks on working class men, particularly white working class men, within our political system are nothing but class prejudice and fear dressed up as something else.

I speak with a cockney accent, am a white London born heterosexual male without a degree and living on a working man’s pension. I must be ignorant.

Eric Lauder

28th September 2019 at 1:25 am

I have read the comments.

Guys, you should be a little more subtle if really you want to properly fool the hypergamous harpies asking you to man up.

Eric Lauder, owner of TIMI – The Independent Man Italy – Italy’s main MGTOW blog.

A Game

29th September 2019 at 1:12 am

MGTOW? Oh please. I’ve looked at that site… I’ve never seen such a pack of utterly f**ked up, damaged, gamma males in my life. Its one long cry of rage that they are single, dressed up as a determination to be single.
Manipulative dross. And if that’s your solution to anything… you need rolling down the mountain as reject goods.

H McLean

29th September 2019 at 4:21 am

Is that your ‘A Game’? More like Z Game. If you want to have ANY understanding why people have a particular outlook on life – even if you find them initially repulsive and abhorrent – maybe you should consider listening to them instead of off-the-cuff insulting them and attempting to invalidate anything they say. I shouldn’t have to tell you this. Your comment was disgraceful, A Game.

A Game

3rd October 2019 at 8:18 am

H McLean:
Once again, assumptions, assumptions. What is it with you people?
I think the very basic idea of MGTOW is excellent. Men who feel victimised by women, men who feel exploited and abused by women, men who find women abusive and exploitative, hypocritical and repugnant… walk away. Leave the scene. Find peace in solitude and friendship and interests. And keep your money and buy nice things.
But that isn’t what I found. I found what I described. Horribly thwarted, resentful men raging because they made every wrong choice and refuse to take responsibility for it. And that they struggle to stick to the MGTOW philosophy…. because they don’t really want to go their own way. They are just seeking permission to not blame themselves and express their feelz. Some of those anecdotes… its like, get some therapy, please…
So toughen up, buttercup.

And I’m chuffed that someone got my name. I accidentally deleted the fullstop. Soz, I’m still bringing it. Argue against what I am saying. If you are not sure, ask, then disagree. But this effort? Judging the poor men on MGTOW… boo hoo.

Eric Lauder

28th September 2019 at 1:18 am

“The attack on traditional notions of masculinity is creating a generation of insecure incompetents.”

That’s the goal, it’s a feature, not a bug: throwing men down so the women will be able to elevate themselves.
It’s gonna happening.

The best a young man can do to, as a partial remedy to his deficiencies, is to ignore every duty he’s supposed to have as a man.
By this way women can elevate themselves, but men will be relieved from their duties, as a partial compensation of their deficiencies.

Needless to say that since UK, and more generally the west, don’t live in a bubble but in a planet shared also by non-western nations, there’s also a major threat inside the above process…

A Game

29th September 2019 at 1:46 am

Exactly. That you are the same lot raging against Islam in your culture… mate, most of you are already half way to conversion. I think you all have a cultural version of “penis envy”.

jessica christon

27th September 2019 at 11:08 pm

Well, the damage has been done, and it won’t suddenly undo itself now that some millennial women have decided that they don’t like the entirely predictable results of decades of denigration of men and masculinity. The only way I see this reversing (slowly) is by women in numbers rejecting feminism and uplifting manliness – and by that I mean traditional masculinity, not some type of feminist definition of what masculinity should be.

At the same time, I don’t know if millennial women in general can really handle being with true alpha male types because you’ve also been indoctrinated with the same anti-male ideas as your male counterparts. If you as a woman cannot accept the man as the leader in your relationship, that you are his lady, not his ‘equal’, and you do not ever *directly* challenge his authority especially in front of others, then you’re more suited to the weak, useless f*ckboys that you’re complaining about than you are to a real masculine alpha male type that you say you want to be with.

A Game

29th September 2019 at 1:05 am

A handmaiden who has bought into the man baby cry of being under appreciated. Men should fight their corner, regardless of what women are doing. You have encapsulated every MRA’s whine perfectly: always looking to feminists to fight for THEM. “What about us?” A true Men’s Right’s Activist will stop howling at feminists and just get on with evaluating the system, and what rights they have lost, and go about campaigning for those rights. As women have had to do to get equality as a citizen.
Feminism as politics as deeply flawed. Women would do better fixing that instead of fussing over the cry babies in their life or on the internet.
Strange, isn’t it. The demand coming from men that women turn around and… well… act like a mother and go into battle for them.
Why not demand other men fight for them? Because that slams into them having to admit to being one of the weaker herd members. Not alpha. What is a way of the non alpha male to still have a bit of swagger in society? Be the leader at home, with an authority that may not be questioned.
Its so fascinating, after you’ve finished showing what a good sport you are, that you mark “directly”. “Directly challenge his authority”. My god, what a passive/aggressive attitude towards the dynamics in a relationship. You know… one of the things that drives men nuts and is deeply annoying to non-passive/aggressive women.
You’ve just argued for the most decayed version of male/female relationships on the planet. He gets his ego stroked and the little, unequal lady incessantly undermines the power she has willingly handed over, via manipulation.
And you wonder why coupledom is in trouble.
And you have unwittingly touched on what is wrong with toxic masculinity. It never separated the good from the bad. Man uses his superior strength to rescue drowning children. Good. Man uses his superior strength to abuse a boy or woman? Bad. Strength to push car out of bog? Good. Strength to intimidate someone who disagrees with them? Bad.
Desire to protect and over see? Good. Desire to control and dominate? Bad.

The writer’s fundamental complaint is that men are playing a game of feelz, but are showing that they are completely insincere as people. Not an entirely modern problem.

jessica christon

30th September 2019 at 3:24 pm

How do I even begin to answer this “marshmallow of rhetoric” (with my apologies the brilliant Geoffrey Cox)? Perhaps by noting that you have, throughout this thread, unwittingly characterised what is wrong with the entire feminist ideology and why it needs to be thrown away pronto.

You use men’s rights activism or “MRA” as a slur; the very idea of men and boys having rights or *gasp* standing up for those rights in the face of feminism is inherently abhorrent to today’s toxic feminist ideology – so out come the mischaracterisations, the ridicule, the name calling, the mockery, in fact, the anything except honest engagement with the opposing arguments. And the real target of it isn’t those who already actively stand up for men and men’s rights; it’s main purpose is to shame the silent majority into remaining silent and not openly associating with it. That’s the real danger, and the feminists know that if the majority spoke up it would put the full kybosh on feminism and ‘woke’ once and for all.

Study after study shows that hardly any women identify as feminists. In fact the overwhelming majority of women dislike feminism, particularly the direction it’s taken over the last 10 years or so, yet this isn’t reflected at all in public life. You rarely hear any anti-feminist or pro-male voices in the mainstream apart from the odd set-up with a Cathy Newman type trying to embarrass them. It’s just another example of the lack of representation of mainstream views within what we are led to believe *is* the mainstream.

To say that men or MRAs “whine” about women not fighting for them is probably the most disingenuous out of all of the ‘points’ you made. The problem is that toxic feminist ideology went institutional a long time ago, and men will get nowhere fast trying to fight it alone – it will take sympathetic women to get on board with them too; women who are brave enough to withstand the hail of insults, mockery, deplatforming, etc that they will receive for it. Civil rights and anti apartheid would have taken far longer to be won without the support of sympathetic Whites, likewise gay rights wouldn’t have been won relatively quickly without straight allies. So this is why women who do not like what they see being done to their fathers, brothers, husbands and partners and other male loved ones by feminism absolutely must speak out against it. Your “MRA whine” put down from the toxic feminist playbook is yet another attempt to shame women away from doing that.

On the subject of alpha males, I noticed that you responded as if I was talking about men in general – which I wasn’t. No, you do not *directly* challenge man with an alpha type personality if you want to keep a good relationship with him, and there is nothing “passive-agressive” about that. In fact this is such basic common sense that even wild animals can understand it, yet you can’t because it is an affront to your ideology. What you should do instead is show him alternatives – maybe he hasn’t considered them before – but when all is said and done he still makes the decision because he is the leader. As I said, if a relationship like that is offensive to you then this type of man is obviously not the man for you. You may find that you are happier sitting with a 20 or 30 something mummy’s boy on mummy’s couch waiting for him to finish his 457764th game of CoD before he even realises you’re there.

Oh, and I do not acknowledge such thing as “toxic masculinity”, to me there is only “masculinity” and toxic ideologies.

A Game

3rd October 2019 at 7:48 am

J Christon:
Another one. To disagree with someone you have to smear all over them something they haven’t said. You must wilfully stamp upon them what you think they are about, what you want them to believe, rather than what their words are actually saying. But fire up!
You’re a hot mess, frankly. You are passive aggressive, you are a power monger, who wants to dress it up sweetness and feminity… everyone’s worst nightmare. The very thing half the people on this thread are bit ching about.
MRAs should be ashamed of themselves. Again, read the writing, ya know. They aren’t fighting for rights, they are whining at feminists. There is a difference. Go find it.
But join up, I’m sure they need someone to fortify them and help them with their manly resolve… not through ideas, but through tea and scones. So run along, help the gamma males climb up and up to the dizzying heights of… beta-dom? That you see it as your life’s work to prop up a beta man, let him have the high of at least, at home, feeling alpha… knock yourself out. That’s called your choice. And I’m all for that. But don’t deprive women who want to embrace other things in life than just worrying about what the bloke is doing and where him and his feelz are at. Some women have more self respect than you. Get over it.

jessica christon

3rd October 2019 at 11:46 am

Who is ‘depriving’ other women of anything? Ok, never mind. For some reason you ran through this thread at the crack of dawn throwing one of the strangest and most triggered tantrums that I’ve seen on Spiked for quite a while. You might think that your ‘thought-streams’ are deep, but they’re shallow and easily seen through as the toxic feminism that you tried so hard to disguise at first as quirky, easy going, friendly disagreement.

So now you’re being called out on it and you don’t like it – that’s all this is, and it all reveals so much more about you than it does about any of the posters it’s being addressed to. So while you’re throwing out names and labels I reckon I can map you as an intellectually dishonest, projecting, toxic feminist idealogue who can safely be flushed.

A Game

7th October 2019 at 2:38 pm

J Christon:
I was 9 hours ahead of the UK. Now its 10 hours. The times reflected are UK times, not my time.
To call out someone’s publicly stated life philosophy is not a tantrum. Its disagreement. Aren’t you lot hanging around here because you feel deprived of your free speech? Interesting reaction to when someone uses their own right to it to disagree with you. You’re all freaking out. And the need to label and box someone who disagrees with you… you are exactly the same as the people you rail against. Everyone must be X, Y or Z. That’s called hypocrisy.

Claire D

3rd October 2019 at 5:26 pm

@Jessica, at least you’re not as ” dumb as a box of hair “.

Phil Anthropist

27th September 2019 at 10:47 pm

Nice try, but with the odd rare exception this is still why, oh why, can’t men be exactly what we want them to be?

I reckon Millennial men should concentrate on looking after their own interests. No-one else is going to.

A Game

29th September 2019 at 12:42 am

Phil A:
Actually, it sounds like that is exactly what they are doing. Propped up by dopey parents and dopey young women. In exchange, they just have to don a pussy hat now and then… small price to pay when you are bankrupt of anything except “looking after their own interests”. (And they only don the hat now that its cool. They aren’t exactly trail blazers. Cheap, cheap price.)

Paul Schaefer

27th September 2019 at 9:15 pm

You don’t want me to tell you how to be a woman, you don’t get to tell me how to be a man.

steve moxon

27th September 2019 at 8:19 pm

No tenet of feminism withstands scrutiny. It’s all hate-mongering garbage.
This is now generally understood, so nobody’s listening to femascists any more.
But we do need to help feminists shaft ’emselves with their own rusty ideological pole.
A good start is science review work showing clearly that feminists and most social scientists (feminists) haven’t got the vaguest clue about what makes men & women tick.
That’s where I reckoned my own efforts would best be employed. See mi site.

Eric Lauder

28th September 2019 at 1:31 am

Last time I checked they had a very solid grip on UK institutions, so much that they convinced Sadiq Khan to not send female criminals in prison, not anymore.

It was 10 days ago.

Something have changed since then?

steve moxon

28th September 2019 at 6:09 am

Sure, but the elites are always behind the times: they are always operating according to yesteryear’s groupthink. Femascism is already intellectual toast as well as toast with people in general. It’ll take a while to translate into a political persona non grata.
That doesn’t mean we don’t need to firmly push the whole obscene hate-mongering nonsense under a train and bury the scrapings off the line in a deep pit of quicklime, of course.

Michael Lynch

27th September 2019 at 7:44 pm

Great. In the next war women can do all the fighting for a change.

Ms_Vanilla Rose

28th September 2019 at 11:44 am

Historically speaking, it has been the men who had the power to actually recruit armies and start wars. Maybe you need some kind of class analysis in your thinking, rather than thinking in terms of a male/female binary?

Michael Lynch

28th September 2019 at 12:58 pm

I’ll agree, it was a flippant remark. However, the notion that even all MEN are equal is an absurd idea to someone like me. Let me explain. As a young man, in the 70/80s I worked in the Civil Construction Industry (Groundwork) as a lowly laborer. It was a part of the building trade that was overwhelmingly populated with Irishmen and their sons. These were the days before H&S and I saw many other men from different cultures and backgrounds come and go in quick succession. Some merely unable to stomach the work, many others simply unable to actually do the work. I have certainly never seen a women swing a pick or shovel! My first few months was a living nightmare and my hands were torn to tatters by being on the end of a shovel In the first few days. My father, the general foreman, noticed the blood and burst blisters and told me to pick up a handful of stone dust and vigorously rub it in to the open sores. He then told me to go behind the fence and urinate into my hands. I know, I thought he was mad too at first! The next morning the sores had sealed over completely and it appeared that my hands had become two pieces of solid hide. I could hardly bend my fingers mind. My Dad explained that this had been the cure down the centuries in rural Ireland for all farm workers and, particularly, for those who had to dig the turf from the bog (fuel for their fires). They had no easy access to hospitals or antiseptic you understand. Thankfully, I was lucky enough to have had the opportunity to work my way up and get out of the trade before the end of my thirties. However, those years have taken their toll. I have a nasty trapped nerve in my spine, a slipped disc injury that has never really healed and a missing finger. So you will appreciate why I don’t buy into the ‘we are all equal’ crap peddled out over the last two decades. Having said that, I agree that everyone must be given equal opportunity to succeed or fail in a meritocracy. Anything else will merely lead to mediocrity and abject failure.

Claire D

28th September 2019 at 2:54 pm

Ms Vanilla Rose,
What you say is incorrect, it has not been ‘ the men ‘ (surely that is binary ?). It has been whoever it has been, sometimes men, kings like Edward IV, Charles I and Georges I, II an III, Hitler, Stalin and sometimes women; Margaret of Anjou, Mary Tudor, Elizabeth I, Catherine the Great, Queen Victoria and Margaret Thatcher who have had the power to recruit armies and go to war.
As for class analysis, well class and power are not interchangeable, they may be connected at times but they are two different things, best looked at separately.

Jim Lawrie

28th September 2019 at 9:12 pm

“Historically speaking, it has been the men who had the power to … start wars.”

What about that Helen of Troy, Dido, QEI – they were well up for a ruck if the men were doing the fighting. At least Boadicea got stuck right in.

A Game

28th September 2019 at 11:47 pm

M Lynch:
This is where the message got completely muddled.
There is a case that female equality was not argued very well, but the resistance to the message was so strong… perhaps clarity caved in the confrontation.

To claim equality of the sexes is not a physical competition, that a woman can dig a ditch as well as a man. We cannot. Everything you describe, the female body in its natural state, is not made as well as mens. Women who love manual labour, obviously go through exactly the same process you went through – have to hone the body, build the muscle, get the calluses etc. Will they ever achieve the same level of strength/output/stamina? Rarely.
We are different animals, physically.
The equality is about as people. As citizens, as employees/employers, as parents, as neighbours… you get my drift. That their opinion/ideas are as valid as a man’s, cause they have brains and feelings, too.
Your anecdote shows the silliness of “toxic masculinity” because certain aspects of society, especially before technology came along, bit by bit, relied on men’s physical strength. There is still a role for that. There never won’t be. Sinking boat? Man pulls you through the porthole? Thanks, mate. (And he has the upper body strength to then get himself through the porthole.)

But in order to make your case against the claim that masculine roles and strength is a negative thing, you have entered the same mindset of the identitarians. Its a competition. Who is the bigger victim?
Generations of poverty, labouring… what do you think the women were doing? Kicking back in their poverty having a great time? In an age without technological advances or the convcenience of take away food? Women laboured in their own way, for longer hours. You came home and put your feet up, most nights, right?
And right now, no matter what class a woman is, no matter how much she “takes care” of herself, whether she has a little or a lot… what childbirth does to women’s bodies, for some, more immediately, for others, post menopausal… is profound.
There was a solution to prolapses with reproductive organs called “the sling”. Literally hauling a woman’s bits up to hold them in place. How this ever was actually implemented. And now? Those women, never having had their problems/pain resolved, have a disintergrating sling, where they are in surgery for hours getting bits of broken down mesh painstakingly picked out, and still no solution to the original problem.
Post menopausal women get a lot of partial/full hysterectomies. Why? Because their bladder needs protecting.
And women endure with all these problems, and still mother, and wife and work…
Ever watch Survivor?
You notice whenever its one of those balancing contests where they have to stand on the top of a log for hours on end? The women usually win it. Women have better endurance because of their lack of muscle and higher body fat. (On top of the obvious – men heavier, bigger feet, if the surface area is the same for all… men do have a disadvantage.) What would that help with? The less intense, but much longer grind of women’s work.
Men and women complement each other.

What’s interesting is the tone of victimisation that you had to labour, coming through. Why do you feel victimised? And its surely not because of women? Rich men created the system you were toiling under. Poor women were as trapped as you were, but with less options for work, because of their physical limitations. That still exists. Mining pays better than shop sales. (Yes, because of risks and intensity etc, but men can make that choice for more money.) Construction pays better than receptionist. Men can be excellent receptionists, but why would you if you can get great pay doing construction?

I think also men got confused with the request that women be allowed to go into trades, etc. Perhaps that’s where this whole “you just aren’t as strong as men” thing may have arisen? (For whatever reason…) But some women, who love being mechanics, are great mechanics. Why can’t they pursue that profession, if they can be good at it? But initially, they weren’t wanted. So, it had to campaigned for. And as time has shown, not many women want to be one, anyway, so there was never a threat that men would lose their traditional masculine jobs.
Another Jordan Peterson point he’s tried to get out there into the brick wall of lefty resistance. (I don’t think JP is perfect, deeply flawed, but he is a thinker, a ponderer, and I’ll always respect that.) Equality of opportunity versus equality of outcomes. He cites a Scandinavian country, over and over… women and men gravitate naturally towards certain types of work. There will always be the exceptions, but as a majority case?

Everyone has to stop this oppression mentality. Men have happily bought into it as quickly as the groups they claim to despise.

Brandy Cluster

29th September 2019 at 12:33 am

Serious history lessons needed here. But that’s the Left’s schtick isn’t it: I don’t know anything but I’m going to tell you how to live.

Michael Lynch

29th September 2019 at 2:35 am

A Game. Where on earth did you get the idea that I feel like a victim? I’ve never felt like a victim in my entire life. I wouldn’t swap my life’s experiences for anything. You couldn’t have done that type of work if you felt like a victim. Any weakness would be immediately condemned from the other men that worked alongside you. You had to earn theIr respect before they’d consider you to be part of their brotherhood anyway. I was brought up to not cry and wail about my lot. It was commonly referred to as tough love by my mine and my parents generation. Isn’t that the very definition of what toxic masculinity is according to modern feminists? Believe me, you wouldn’t last five minutes in the world I came from if you succumbed to inner weakness. Toxic masculinity is absolutely necessary for survival of all hardship.

Ven Oods

29th September 2019 at 9:37 pm

“What about that Helen of Troy…”
When I read about it, Helen just wanted to elope with her fancy-man. The whole Trojan War/wooden horse thing was an unlooked-for downside, visited upon her by blokes.

A Game

3rd October 2019 at 7:28 am

M Lynch,
I’m working class, I know its one of the worst things in the world to show vulnerability. We all torture each other with it. J FF Phillips… she wasn’t let in on the secret.

I got a victim mentality in how you described your experience. You also used it in a discussion about awful women and what you as a man had to do for work.

That’s what the crack about Moving Pictures/Public Enemy is. I don’t think you blokes know how you are phrasing your anecdotes and their use. You’re copping it for your masculinity but look at the price you had to be pay for your masculinity.

Claire D

28th September 2019 at 3:09 pm

thank you for sharing a bit of your experience, it is doubly moving when you think of the thousands upon thousands of men who down the centuries suffered the same way as you did to build our civilisation. That’s what really makes me angry with the whole ‘ toxic masculinity ‘ nonsense; if it was’nt for masculinity of any kind there would be no homes, no roads or pavements, no plumbing, no electricity, no theatres, no boats or ships, no cars, no aeroplanes, no furniture, no bloody anything, if you’ll forgive my language.

Michael Lynch

28th September 2019 at 9:24 pm

Cheers, Claire. Another disturbing theme from the so called educated youth of today is their belief that they are somehow superior to people who have not had the benefit of a degree education. My father received a rudimentary education, left school at 13 and then his home and country to find his fortune at the very tender age of 16. In my late 30’s I went back to university (self funded whilst working full time, of course). Both he and my mother attended my congregation and were understandably proud of my achievement. However, I’d have rather cut my own tongue out before I’d entertain the idea of being intellectually or morally superior to them. He was a devout Christian with a very pragmatic attitude toward his Catholic faith. This ability to doubt made him extremely wise. Indeed, he was also the most tolerant and emotionally stable person I have ever known. Yet the young arrogant fools of today would have you believe that he had no right to vote or even make complex decisions! Furthermore, most of the worlds population probably wouldn’t even have received the simple standard of education he had. So they must also believe that they are superior to the rest of them too. This remarkable arrogance renders them no better than the Victorian elite who ruled over the Empire. They too believed that they had the right to absolute power because they were civilized and had been highly educated. Indeed, I rather think the youth of today’s education has been wasted on them and that, in fact, they haven’t had an education at all. Instead, what they have paid for is merely an indoctrination! If you cannot reason, doubt and logically debate without resorting to insult then you are nothing more than a smart fool (one of my father’s phrases).

A Game

28th September 2019 at 11:50 pm

M Lynch.
Just on the educational elitism. That is truly a country to country thing. Its been a long used weapon in the UK, designed to provoke the exact feelings you describe.
The Brexit issue has shone a light on that, beautifully. Its designed to gaslight the working classes.
I live in an egalitarian country (thought he identitarians are trying to create a social middle class – definitely not necessarily succeeding economically) and this stuff just doesn’t get air time. They try it, now and then, and usually get bundled off and stamped “wanker”.

A Game

28th September 2019 at 11:54 pm

Without men, women find ways. But its always been a partnership. If you want children… the division of labour must happen.

Kurdish women have been on the front line fighting ISIS. And they quite like it when they are about to “do their job” and the ISIS POS realises its a woman who is about to deprive him of 72 virgins.

A Game

3rd October 2019 at 8:24 am

Yes, the women can fight and the men can be raped and pillaged. Sounds like an overdue trade to me. (And going by your other comments, it looks like you’d better have something handy to bite on… the enemy will be coming.)

In Negative

27th September 2019 at 5:57 pm

I’m a painfully insecure man who revels in his own incompetance. See. I can’t even spell incompetance and I don’t care.

Eric Lauder

28th September 2019 at 1:28 am

This is pure genius.
I commend you and I like your style.

A Game

28th September 2019 at 10:39 pm

Actually, you’re indifference to the spelling error shows the entitlement to still take your place and that your opinions still matter, despite the hint of illiteracy. (I know you are not, obviously.) The opposite of insecurity.

Ven Oods

29th September 2019 at 9:31 pm

“you’re indifference…”
Clasiic knockabout? Or a genuine oversight?

A Game

3rd October 2019 at 7:10 am

V Oods.
Genuine oversight. It happens. Often. I’ll forgive myself, as I forgive others. I try not to make commenting an academic exercise.

James Knight

27th September 2019 at 4:04 pm

Just saying “man up” is no longer allowed is it is supposedly a threat to mental health.

Dominic Straiton

27th September 2019 at 4:00 pm

P.S Committing for life or at least twenty years is the very least you can do for your kids( I failed ) and all the disasters of anorexia, extreme climate change paranoia etc are the results of mens failure.

A Game

28th September 2019 at 11:17 pm

Yeah, I had a bizarre conversation a couple of years ago with a friend who thought having children with a woman was less of a commitment that marrying that woman. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. That to have a child is less profound than marriage, that can be dissolved, quite efficiently these days. The kids… you can’t void their existence.
And at the same time financially, domestically entwined with a woman… but just not married. Weird as.

Dominic Straiton

27th September 2019 at 3:54 pm

Hey Millennial men .Grow a pair. Put a ring on her finger. Commit for life. Produce children. There is no other point to life.

A Game

28th September 2019 at 11:51 pm

Its what the animals continue to do in their sluttish way. (No ring.) All the rest is just noise after those basics.

Brandy Cluster

29th September 2019 at 12:36 am

With the numbers of homosexuals rising yearly I think this is now pie-in-the-sky thinking. Sadly.

Stephen Kenny

29th September 2019 at 11:59 am

That’s pretty grim indictment of the modern world, and also I don’t think it’s true. It’s full of marvellous, challenging, and fascinating things to do. Finding yourself in a dull marriage (and most were), because it’s your social duty, may have been OK 40 years ago because it was socially & economically necessary, and there were considerable benefits (mainly social), but it is clearly far from being true today.
Pressure on men to marry is almost non existent, leaving social inertia as the main driver, and that is becoming less and less as fewer and fewer people marry. Add to that the considerable risks of marriage for men, and the decreasing benefits, and the place of marriage as a dominant social institution is clearly coming in to question.

40 years ago, when your friends started marrying (and it seemed to happen in a sudden flood) they’d say things like ‘well guys, see you on the other side’, and they would pretty much be gone from your life. Newly married people, on the rare occasions you did meet them, were irritating and smug, perpetually implying somehow that they’d joined the ‘grown up world’ and you hadn’t. Looking back on it, it seems quite bizarre, and so very different to today.

Marriage, certainly for men, was never really held up as being very attractive, it was described as ‘hard work but worth it’. So I suppose the question today is, is it still worth it? Decreasingly so, it seems.

Ven Oods

29th September 2019 at 9:25 pm

“Marriage, certainly for men, was never really held up as being very attractive…”
And yet, married men tend live longer and self-report as being happier. From which we must conclude that either a) the longevity is a punishment, or b) they’re all liars.

Ven Oods

29th September 2019 at 9:28 pm

So childless people are pointless? All those of my acquaintance seem happy enough. Perhaps they just don’t know?

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